Paris Charlie Hebdo Shooting, Chinese Netizen Reactions

A gunman executes a wounded Parisian police officer in the 2015 Charlie Hebdo terrorist attack.

A gunman executes a wounded Parisian police officer in the 2015 Charlie Hebdo terrorist attack.

From NetEase:

12 Already Dead in Paris Shooting, Gunmen Spraying Bullets with Sub-Machine Guns

People.com.cn January 7 report — A shooting occurred at the headquarters of Charlie Hebdo in France’s capital of Paris on the morning of the 7th, resulting in 12 deaths so far, including two police officers, while 4 remain in critical condition and over 20 were wounded. French President Francois Hollande said, “Without a doubt, this is a terrorist attack.”

After the shooting, the French Parisian area activated its highest level of anti-terrorism alert. According to reports, the gunmen are still on the run, with witnesses claiming “at least 5 people fled in a car.”

According to French television reports, two masked gunmen got out of a car, carrying sub-machine guns, entered the magazine’s offices and sprayed bullets. This is the most serious terrorist attack against the news media that has ever happened in France. From surveillance footage, the gunmen can be heard shouting “Allahu Akbar“. French police are currently hunting the gunmen.

Hollande will hold an emergency meeting this afternoon with the relevant government departments, and issue a statement on television at 8pm.

(Original Title: Major Terrorist Attack in Paris, France, Hollande to Make Television Statement)

Comments from NetEase:

网易山东省青岛市网友 ip:60.209.*.*

That was an injured Parisian JC. Certain groups indeed are inhuman, without the least bit of humanity.

spencer0426 [网易北京市朝阳区网友]:

When this video was broadcasted by CNN, they edited out these few seconds, CCTV cut it out too. Too cruel/merciless.

撸至伸 撸至伸 [网易广东省东莞市网友]:

Extremists must be killed without mercy!

三哥三弟shjj [网易河北省石家庄市手机网友]:

Would you be shot dead by a monk for cursing/criticizing Buddha? Would you be shot dead by a priest/pastor for cursing/criticizing Jesus? Then faith would be a White Terror [or “that faith is a white terror”]!

Ys87v5 [网易法国手机网友]:

Fuck. A firefight in the 11th arrondissement [district of Paris] and then they fled. Fleeing is one thing, but the ended up fleeing to departement 93. My home is in 93. I don’t even dare go home when I get off work soon.

From NetEase:

READ  College Schoolgirl: 3 Years, 5 Abortions

Shooting at French Magazine Headquarters, 12 Dead

2015 January 7 local time, Paris, France, a group of armed men charged into the headquarters of French satirical cartoon magazine Charlie Hebdo located in Paris, and then opened fire. Information from Agence France Presse claims at least 2 attackers were carrying sub-machine guns and rocket-propelled grenade launchers, and so far 12 have been killed including 2 police officers. French President Hollande has already arrived on the scene.

Image is of the armed men in a confrontation with police.
Image is of the armed men in a confrontation with police.
Photo is of police vehicle at the scene that was attacked.
Photo is of police vehicle at the scene that was attacked.
Photo is of police vehicle at the scene that was attacked.
Photo is of police vehicle at the scene that was attacked.
Photo is of a bullet hole in a window near the Charlie Hebdo headquarters office.
Photo is of a bullet hole in a window near the Charlie Hebdo headquarters office.
Photo is of the scene of the incident, where an injured person is being carried from the scene.
Photo is of the scene of the incident, where an injured person is being carried from the scene.
Photo is of the scene of the incident, where an injured person is being carried onto an ambulance.
Photo is of the scene of the incident, where an injured person is being carried onto an ambulance.
Photo is of the scene of the incident, where an injured person is being carried onto an ambulance.
Photo is of the scene of the incident, where an injured person is being carried onto an ambulance.
Photo is of the scene of the incident, where an injured person is being carried onto an ambulance.
Photo is of the scene of the incident, where an injured person is being carried onto an ambulance.

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Photo i of French President Hollande arriving at the scene of the incident.
Photo is of French President Hollande arriving at the scene of the incident.

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Comments from NetEase:

网易福建省福州市手机网友 ip:59.56.*.* 2015-01-07 20:03:11 发表

CCAV once again has something to talk about.

jackbauer24hours [喵星人]:

Why are things so bad abroad?
Can you people be a bit more harmonious?

jackyx6 [网易上海市网友]: (responding to above)

This news has had a lot of key information cut out.

沧海一粟粉碎机 [网易中国手机网友]:

When a shooting or sudden incident occurs in Europe or America, rolling or special coverage is the standard; if it happened domestically, CCAV’s response is to either be silent or to report it.

网易日本网友 ip:106.187.*.*

The increasing volatility with Muslim extremist terrorist and America’s Hispanic and black population are the inevitable result of white European and American zhuang bi. The Muslimification of Europe Hispanification of America are getting worse by the day, currently in the process of swallowing the fair democratic social order established in Europe an America. Fortunately, Europeans are now waking up. Germans daily demonstrating in protest against the government’s Muslim immigration policies is clear proof, if only it wasn’t too late! A moment of silence for the victims of this act of terrorism. May the departed rest in peace.

#French Magazine Attacked# is currently the top trending hashtag topic on Chinese microblogging platform Sina Weibo, with over 780 million views.

The above video was included in the original Chinese article and viewed by Chinese netizens. We included it in our translation because we believe it is important to see what Chinese netizens saw and have commented about. Some advertisers would object to it. This is one important reason why we need our readers’ support, so we can maintain our editorial independence.

Written by Fauna

Fauna is a mysterious young Shanghainese girl who lives in the only place a Shanghainese person would ever want to live: Shanghai. In mid-2008, she started chinaSMACK to combine her hobby of browsing Chinese internet forums with her goal of improving her English. Through her tireless translation of popular Chinese internet news and phenomenon, her English has apparently gotten dramatically better. At least, reading and writing-wise. Unfortunately, she's still not confident enough to have written this bio, about herself, by herself.

  • Joey

    网易日本网友 is a truly retarded SB

    • vincent_t

      Yup, but his remark that Europe is being “muslimification” is quite true though.

    • Nilerafter24

      What he says has a lot of truth to it though. People just don’t want to acknowledge it out of fear of being branded a racist/bigot.
      White people don’t want to see the very ‘obvious’ problem because they’ve deluded themselves into believing these people are capable of assimilating. White people have a real knack for altruism and seeing the best in people. This is a wonderful trait to have but unfortunately this will be their undoing. Obviously there are many ethnic/racial/religious aliens who can and do live in peace with one another but this kind of multicultural clashing is unavoidable when one group becomes too populous. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade.
      I’m black African and I can say this without my ass being thrown into the saucepan for the most part because I guess I’m in a ‘protected from the repercussions of stating inconvenient truths’ group.

      It’s a very complicated issue. I can’t claim to know the solution to such a sensitive issue. Every time I read the news I’m just hoping some black person hasn’t done something stupid/insane/horrific to lower the already low opinion people have of black people. So I understand all too well the real frustration, embarrassment and fear of retaliation that the peaceful Muslims in Paris are feeling right now.

      Religion should never ever ever be a reason to kill.

      • Irvin

        Yet people always kill in the name of religion, weather it’s theistic or state. It really should be eradicated from this world.

        • Roger Griffith

          So, throw the baby out with the bath water?

      • Helen Malloy

        African-Americans have been in American since before its founding. We
        are only 13 percent of the population and shrinking. There has always
        been a disadvantaged slant towards our group, in crime, even before
        modern times, because white people refused to see us as human being and
        only slaves. Our population is also shrinking within the united states.
        Believe the propoganda against if you will, but don’t be ignorant.

    • Irvin

      no he’s not.

      • Helen Malloy

        Black people are not trying to overun america. We have been here since the beginning, fought in ever major american war, and helped building the country from the ground up. The Chinese poster is wrong.

        • ClausRasmussen

          The Chinese poster talks about Latinos, not Blacks

          • Helen Malloy

            “The increasing volatility with Muslim extremist terrorist and
            America’s Hispanic and black population are the inevitable result of
            white European and American zhuang bi.”

          • ClausRasmussen

            You’re right. I overlooked that

    • Chestnut Bowl

      Agreed.

    • Zappa Frank

      I don’t know for America, but about europe is pretty much true what he said. Muslim people grow year by year and despite all the good will cannot be assimilated in the Europeans values. Not only them, but most are them. After this for sure things will change, le pen will get at least 60% of votes and other parties to don’t lose support will have to be a lot more strict on Muslims and immigration in general.

      • UserID01

        I will say that if you move to another country and self-segregate and refuse to assimilate and learn the customs and language of the country YOU CHOSE TO MOVE TO… you have only yourself to blame for feeling disenfranchised and isolated.

        You can’t move to another place and then refuse to be part of that society, then complain about not being accepted as part of that society. That’s fucking backwards.

  • UserID01

    This is just awful, awful news. My sympathies to Parisians and all fair-minded people around the world who want an end to religious extremism and terrorism.

    • Irvin

      Except extremism IS their religion. All who do not believe what they believe they view them as “infidels” and in their eyes would go to hell. Covering their women as much as they can regardless of weather or practicality.

      They kill writers and movie directors for works that goes against their beliefs. It’s a very “us” against “them” mindset with very little room for compromise or understanding.

      I always believe that religion one of single greatest thing that holds back human development and philosophical understandings. But of them all, islam is the greatest threat of them all.

      • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

        Not really. Even other muslims distance themselves from these guys. The problem is not the religion itself. It’s when you give it power. Specifically power given too the ignorant whose only source of knowledge is the faith.

        • ClausRasmussen

          >> The problem is not the religion

          Yes it is

          • Irvin

            It so fucking IS!

          • UserID01

            I can’t say that the religion itself is the problem. There are many, many different religions in the world aside from the Big 3 with the most members (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), such as Taoism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Shintoism, etc. etc. The majority of people who follow these religions, even to the exact T, live peaceful lives without major conflict. And even if there’s some sort of directive in their holy books that call for the harm or execution of non-believers, most people have the common fucking sense to NOT go around killing people who disagree. And whether you like it or not, the absolute FACT of the matter is, most religious people aren’t going around killing each other. It’s not a normal thing. In fact, when religious killings happen, they make the news BECAUSE they’re abnormal. People go about their daily lives, practicing their faith, in a totally normal way that fits in with modern living and values and worry about normal modern issues like paying the rent/mortgage, getting dinner on the table on time and how much the petrol prices are going up. They aren’t thinking, “If my neighbor doesn’t stop eating BLTs right this moment, I’m going to slit his throat.”

            Crazy, hateful people are going to be crazy, hateful people whether they’re religious or not. The issue is, when you have an increase in popularity of one particular religion, the odds go up that a crazy, hateful person is going to be a member of that growing-in-popularity religion. And then there’s going to be someone saying, “Fuck, it’s those Religion guys acting up again, they’re all dangerous!!” And meanwhile, the millions or BILLIONS of other members who just want to live in peace get a bad wrap, too.

          • ClausRasmussen

            I am not against religion in general. I am a non-believer myself but understand why people have a need for religion and even think that some religions have a positive influence on people and society

            But that is not the same as I believe all religions are benign. Some religions, Islam in particular, is a menace

          • UserID01

            I’m nonreligious myself. I wouldn’t say I believe in an omnipotent, omnipresent being in the sky, but I can say that I think, in this great wide universe, there might be a creature so amazingly beyond our scope of understanding it that it may be considered god-like because we couldn’t possibly figure out how it even exists. But I can’t say I’d ever worship it. I probably wouldn’t. My ego wouldn’t let me.

            In any case, onto the subject at hand… I have to wonder why it seems that radical Islamists seem to have a particular aversion to joining modern society. It’s almost as if they have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into civilized behavior. Even Buddhists that lead extremely simple and isolated lives might engage in dancing, the occasional drink, and Face Time on an iPad now and then. Radical Islam seems to forbid any and all things that might possibly put a smile on your face. It’s like they want to enforce misery for the sake of enforcing misery. I can never understand that.

    • Fatima

      “This is just awful, awful news. My sympathies to Parisians and all fair-minded people around the world who want an end to extremism and terrorism.
      Pity you didnt sat that when the terrorists invaded Iraq on 3/20/2003 and afganistan on 11/7/2001

      • UserID01

        How the fuck did you know what I did or didn’t say back in 2003 and 2001?

        • biggj

          Shes ISIS. Cased closed. lol Apparently ISIS has the technology now to make the flux capacitor. This is not fucking good.

      • UserID01

        And how in the fuck do you know what I did or didn’t say twelve and fourteen years ago, respectively?

        • Arzugul

          can you tell us what your position is and feelings towards all the hundreds of innocent civilians torn apart by drone bombing ?

          • UserID01

            It’s an awful situation. Drones cannot show discrimination in their targets. They’re mindless machines being remote controlled by people hundreds or even thousands of miles away. Drones are awful because they allow someone to be far and away from the horror of the result of war, and it seems much easier for a person to be able to destroy an enemy if they see it as a target rather than another human being, with human experiences, human emotions, human pain and human circumstances that have led up to that point. Drones make war all the more mechanical and heartless, and that’s not an easy thing to do considering that war in and of itself is the result of a complete communications failure and an unwillingness or inability to come to an understanding.

            So, long story short, drone attacks are shitty. Bombings are shitty. Rocket attacks are shitty. Any and all wars, no matter WHO is participating, are shitty situations that do more harm than good. You’ll have a hard time convincing me that the mother burying her child is going to think, “At least we won the war!” in any fuckin’ situation. That’s my position.

      • vincent_t

        and pity too you didn’t include the Iran Iraq war and the Taliban pouring acid onto women face who didn’t covered with burqa.

  • Irvin

    Islam is more a cult than religion, don’t know why people can’t see that. Their Prophet Muhammad married a 6 years old and fucked her at 9. It’s just a cult that gotten big and out of hand.

    I just hope it’s not too late for people to wake up and do something about it.

    • Teacher in China

      All religions are cults. Singling out Islam is like talking about how bad drugs are and only mentioning heroin.

      • Perseus Wong

        All religions may be cults. But Islam is the only Religion to still issue assassination fatwas against unbelievers in modern times. Your drugs and heroin isn’t a comparison. No one is murdered for drawing offensive cartoons of heroin or refusing to take heroin.

        • bujiebuke

          I think your extending his analogy beyond the scope of the original context. Islam is not the only religion to have extremists, there are plenty of violent christian fundamentalists in Africa, something that rarely receives international attention.

          • Teacher in China

            Exactly, thank you.

          • Probotector

            Another typically moronic apologist comment from you. Although there may exist extremism from other religions, it is heavily drarfed by that of Islam, hence why that’s “something that rarely receives international attention”. But hey, anything to apologise for those who hate you right?

          • bujiebuke

            …and just which part of what I wrote is apologetic? I think you read only my post without first reading the thread which would put my post in context. You can’t really be this stupid can you?

            Btw. do you still think I’m a white guy? LOL

          • Probotector

            Yeah okay, so someone disagreeing with you equals stupidity, another liberal knee-jerk answer. You’re defending Islam, by saying that it’s not the only religion to have extremists, yet you conveniently forget or are ignorant of the fact that it still has the most extremists of any other religion/ideology/movement in the world, then you surprise surprise jump on Christianity, and equate that to Islam. You’re therefore attempting to nullify the threat of radical Islam, by implying it’s not as bad as everyone else. That’s what makes you an apologist. Btw, it’s ironic how you call others stupid, but can never seem to understand the difference between ‘your’ and ‘you’re’, as it’s not the first time you’ve typed this. Now before you call me a grammar Nazi, let’s face it, you can’t even master your own language, yet here you are again arrogantly proclaiming others to be stupid because you believe, in your pathetic opinion, that your attitude is the sole word of truth.

            Not sure if I ever called you white, but how can I know for certain if you’re white or not, since I can’t see you? In any case, it’s a bit rich of you to begrudge others for being presumptive. So what, you’re a Chinese nationalist then? Figures.

          • bujiebuke

            Perseus Wong wrote: “But Islam is the only Religion to still issue assassination fatwas against unbelievers in modern times. ”

            All I have to do is bring up one example to refute this claim, and I did. Your claim that Islam is more violent than other religions is irrelevant to the debate because it’s not about which religion is more violent, rather the issue is that all religions can and have been violent. Only an idiot like you would think that I’m trying to “nullify” radical Islam. Your inimitable stupidity are displayed in your posts, the evidence is there for everyone to inspect.

            I’ve told you before and I’ll school you again, calling someone a liberal/conservative is dishonest and loathsome tactic only a half-wit would use to ignore the actual debate. Calling someone’s argument liberal/conservative is not evidence that they’re wrong.

            I find it hilarious that in your half-sentence tourette-like rants, few if anyone has bothered to reply to you. All you do is reply to my posts by claiming that I’m some sort of “white liberal apologist” and yet you have no proof of this or ever will.

            Btw, nit-picking on someone’s grammar while ignoring the larger issue of a debate is another sham argument, but I don’t expect you to understand that aspect either.

          • James

            all religion are cults, all religions suck. Just some suck more than others.

        • Bob Loblaw
          • Matt

            1 incident 26 years ago? Sorry, but no.

          • Probotector

            Good to see you again.

        • gregblandino

          Eric Robert Rudolph bombed the Olympics and several abortion clinicls because he thought “man’s law” did not supercede “God’s law” vis a vis abortion and homosexuality. Eric Tiller got shot on separate occasions by Christian terrorists.
          On a more tenuous connection, George W. prattling on about talking to God about invading Iraq and his close personal relationship with his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ could lead the more…skeptical minded into thinking their might have been a religious component to his invasion of two Muslim countries resulting in the deaths of thousands.
          Finally, while the comic provided the “soft target,” France has invaded 3 muslim countries in the past decade. If you go to other people’s countries and kill them while providing your own justifications, don’t be surprised when they come to your country and kill you while providing their justifications.

          • ClausRasmussen

            Jesus or Buddha never killed someone or told their followers to kill someone. The same can’t be said about Muhammed

          • gregblandino

            Jesus and Buddha don’t appear as individuals in the historical record, so no one know if they killed someone or even existed. The Old Testament, which is certainly part of Christianity, has more than it’s fair share of killing and instructing it’s followers it kill. And the point would be what the followers of their religions do or have done.

          • ClausRasmussen

            >> Jesus and Buddha don’t appear as individuals in the historical record, so no one know if they killed someone or even existed

            Well, then I don’t think it will bring us any further continuing this

          • David

            Your incorrect, there are plenty of secular writings about Jesus, starting with the historian Josephus. Buddha lived at a time when histories where mixed in with myth, so it is harder to separate but he was certainly written about.

          • gregblandino

            Josephus and I think Tacitus mention Jesus as a guy who a bunch of people follow who got crucified, but they have nothing specific on how he lived and what he did. It’s vague and second hand. It’s more an early record of Christians than an early record of Christ.

            There’s no contemporaneous record of his existence, unlike Muhammad who appears in not only contemporaneous recordings of his life by his followers (the hadiths, or great or dubious historical value depending on who you ask) but also in the records of the non Muslims of his time. I think the hadith are super shady, but if his enemies are writing about the man he’s probably there.

          • Probotector

            The Old Testament is only partially part of Christianity, and is by no means ever the focus of Christian teachings, except with creation and original sin. The rest of Christianity focuses of the New Testament almost entirely.

          • Teacher in China

            Don’t forget about the gays! Christians love to quote the Old Testament when talking about the evils of homosexuality!

          • Luke the Duke

            The Bible contains multiple instructions to kill non-believers/sinners etc.

          • ClausRasmussen

            Jesus or Buddha never killed someone or told their followers to kill someone (yes, I am repeating myself)

          • Luke the Duke

            God, the creator of the whole world and father of Jesus, told multiple people to kill others.

          • ClausRasmussen

            You don’t get it

          • Luke the Duke

            I get that you are using a totally unrepresentative collection of Mohammed quotes to smear an entire religion whose teachings are every bit as much about peace and reconciliation as those of any other religion.

          • David

            Yes he does, he is just trolling now.

          • Probotector

            Correction, the Old Testament says that. The Old Testament is the Jewish Bible, and has little to do with Christianity. Christians only really accept that the events described in the Old Testament happened, the rest of the religion focuses on the peace, love and forgiveness that they claim was taught by Jesus, which is the New Testament. So basically Old Testament = Jewish Bible; New Testament = Christian Bible. Take it up with the Jews why it says in the Talmud that they should stone people. Even so, they’ve had a reformation of their own where they don’t take these teachings literally. The fundamental difference s that Jews and Christians don’t take their holy book as literally as Muslims do.

          • Luke the Duke

            ‘The fundamental difference is that Jews and Christians don’t take their holy book as literally as Muslims do.’

            Haha. If you say so!

          • gregblandino

            There is no record of Muhammed personally killing anybody.

          • Zappa Frank

            but there are records of wars done by Muhammed right?

          • gregblandino

            Yes. Not to get into to much detail, but the Meccan part of the Quaran is pretty peaceful and what not, the Medinan part coincides with a war to return to Mecca and has more violent verses.
            The Old Testament, which makes up the vast majority of the Bible, is full of wars/massacres/genocide. Revelations in the New Testament is full of violent imagery and portrays Jesus as a warrior during the second coming.

          • Zappa Frank

            let me say that I don’t value that much any religion, but christianism is based on the new testament, the old is still part, but the core is the new one for Christians, else they would be like Jews. And the new testament was not about war nor violence, on the opposite. Now, the point in my opinion is another one, because you can rightfully argue that also Christians in past fight other religions and is true as well that Christians killed huge amount of people to convert them in past… BUT the difference is that in western society we arrived at a clear separation between religion and state, we got the France’s revolution and the age of enlightenment that definitely marked the distance between past and modern, with an overhelming victory of the ration… as result in wester countries among Christians there are just few that really are and strictly follow the rules, most don’t… the same never happened in Muslims countries, and that is the point that makes the difference huge

          • gregblandino

            Except you go to muslim countries and see muslims and plenty of them drink a little wine and smoke a little hash and listen to music and watch TV and love their families as much as we do. The rules are there, yes, but people still live.
            Invading other countries and then pretending the poeple there are “irrational” when they strike back using whatever means at their disposal is just silly. You don’t think muslims feel the same amount of shock and outrage when a bomb goes off in their neighborhood and it’s a French plane that’s dropped it? How many Western countries have been invaded by Islamic countries in the past 100 years? How many Islamic countries invaded by Western ones in the past 100 years? Which party seems to be the one that enjoyed an “overwhelming victory of the rational?”
            If Muslim countries had the military might to fight using conventional means, and Western countries were stuck with nothing but sheer force of will to defend themselves, I’d imagine the situation wouldn’t look to different from how it does now with the parties reversed being the only difference.

          • Zappa Frank

            actually the whole Europe is invaded by Muslims.
            Muslims drink wine and smoke whatever, but at the end of the day the religious fundamentalism remain, even just in the intolerance for others, remains the huge lack between the use of the ration and the secularization that haven’t happened in muslims countries. In Muslim countries there is nothing like tolerance, laic state, and so on..
            secondly it has nothing to do with the American invaision of Iraq or Afganistan, not even with the old French invasion of Algeria. Those are people that are immigrants or are descendent of immigrants. they wanted to live in France, than if you want to live in France you have to respect the France rules and culture, else you can go back to your country or the country that fit better to you.
            If muslim countries had the military might for fight using conventional means now we would probably all be already muslimified by long, while it doesn’t seem to me west have ever forced them to change their religion or their culture.

          • gregblandino

            So you’re tolerant but if you don’t act like us then leave.

            There have and are plenty of religious minorities who have not been “Muslimified” in Muslim countries and empires, with I guess the Mughal Empire into Northern India being the most obvious example of non Muslimification population wise. Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Serbia/Ex-Yugoslavia have certainly not been “Muslimified” even though being conquered by a militantly Islamic Empire. I mean Christ, there are still Assyrians and Copts right in the Islamic Heartland. You think the Yezidis would have made it through the Inquisition? Muslims didn’t last long when Spain went Christian, I’ll tell you that.

            Finally, I’ll link to this article because it says what I want to say about the West not forcing them to change their religion or culture. It’s called Jihad vs. The Shopping Mall https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/jihad-hyperpanda/

          • Zappa Frank

            I’m tolerant but if you act AGAINST our values than leave. Simply. What is the reason to be here in first stance if you don’t like our values?
            There are plenty of minorities, no doubt, but still the countries remains religion confession countries, where is not possible express yourself against religion for instance, be an apostate is punishable maybe with death and so on..
            The example you do about chirstians are all before the age of enlightenment that is what makes the difference
            I’ve read the article, but sincerely I don’t think is the same be conquered because the modernization is a western product, and if you don’t develop your version of modernization you just have to take a western product, and the thousands and thousands of muslims that arrive every year in Europe and that want to keep their habits that are again AGAINST the Europeans values and even want to push the European society on their positions without any problem in using violence.

          • gregblandino

            Jews in Europe post Enlightenment to 1945 then. I’ll grant that this situation isn’t 100% religious based, with nationalism and racism playing a strong part in the eventual genocide/expulsion of the majority of Jews from Europe, but it dovetails too neatly with the centuries of religious persecution of the Jews in the Christian world to pretend their isn’t a connection between the two.

          • Zappa Frank

            Jews were persecuted as race, not as religion, so much that to nazists was indifferent whether they were going to the synagogue or to the church. We can argue whether the religion played a role BEFORE in the prejudice against them, but in the moment it happened wasn’t

            but again, does it seem to you than anyone has been persecuted according to the law for talking against the values of Christianity? it seems to me Feuerbach hasn’t be burned down, and many like him. Nowadays is absolutely acceptable to talk bad about chirstian religion. Does it seem to you that in wester society the religion play the same role as in the muslims societies?

          • gregblandino

            No it does not at least not in European countries. Parts of America are as religious if not more so than say a moderate country like Morocco or Turkey. I could get a drink in Tangiers faster than in a dry county down South.
            The religious prejudice and ethnic prejudice are inseparable in my mind, the same way that anti Islamic and anti Arab sentiment are mixed up in France today. The thing that struck me last I went to France was the dual complaint that the Arabs where “too Islamic” and also “drug dealers who bang too many French women.”
            For most of the world, ethnicity and religion go hand in hand and can’t be separated. During Krystalnacht nearly all of Germany’s synagouges were burnt, I’d think that at least suggests a desire to eliminate the Jews both as an ethnicity and their corresponding religious symbols.

          • Zappa Frank

            I have no idea about the south US since I’ve never been there. in turkey recently there is a rise of islamists and growing up of the intolerance..and we talk about the MOST moderate muslim country in the world, that was next to be part of the EU.
            What people say about arabs (that doesn’t have to be confused with muslims anyway) has double face, for sure there is a part of prejudice and ignorance and even hate… but we cannot deny that there are truths, that maybe cannot be applied to all arabs but for sure to some. If Islamic people in France cannot accept a fierce and caustic critic of their religion than simply they cannot stay in France. The rest about ‘arabs bangs or women, arabs drugs dealer’ and so on are ANOTHER thing, problems of complete different nature (if there is a problem) and we should not mix them.

            Synagouges were burnt, but this because for sure if you are of jewish religion you are of jewish race. The Nazism was all about race and not religion, so much that to some extent the nazist’s belief wasn’t even Christian in the end, they were looking for pagans more or less reinvented belief

          • gregblandino

            But you can’t say the problems aren’t mixed when from the perspective of French Arabs, who seemed to be pretty westernized and decent folk to me, all they get is insulted as a race (never once heard someone forget a “vous” for a French person, lots of Arabs complaining about French, especially Police, using “tu”) and as a religious group. No one’s going to be like
            “The woman in the bolangerie is rude becaue I’m an Arab, yet the march in the street hates me because I’m Muslim and those two things have nothing to do with each other.” Added with the French military invading/bombing 3 Muslim countries in the past year, plus the rise of Marine Le Pen, plus the Burqa ban, and you don’t get the picture of a particularly welcoming environment for Muslims/Arabs. I mean, stop the woman and ask if she wants to wear a Burqa, and if she’s like “No but my husband will beat me” by all means go arrest the husband and if she’s like “No, it’s my choice,” then whatever, but to ban the traditional dress for Arab women becuse “Laicite!,” I mean, come on. It’s like the bans on baggie pants and sideways baseball hats in the states, everyone knows the game being played.
            When establishments (bars clubs etc.) won’t let in Arabs who have lived in France for 3 generations but as an American I just walk up and say “Howdy” and they let me in, then yea a comic is sort of the straw that breaks the camels back. Especially as the French like to bang on and on about their tolerance and secularie and blah blah but in real life the Arabs get treated like shit.
            In Turkey, at least Istanbul, you can still get yourself some Raki if your determined to find a drink that tastes even worse than baijiu. It’s pretty liberal. I’ve heard the countryside’s not as bad as it’s made out to be but that’s from a roommate, not personal observation.

          • Zappa Frank

            again, I don’t doubt there is a racial prejudice and that arabs people are treated at least unfairly, but is another thing. The example of the burqa is perfect, in France is rightfully forbidden, why? because no matter if a woman wear it because the husband will beat her if she doesn’t or if she wear it because really believe in the culture and the meaning behind it, in both case is incompatible with Europeans values, and then is a right choice to forbid it. If she wants to wear the burqa she can do it in her country of origin, to wear a burqa in a western society means that you don’t accept the values of the society where you want to live.
            With the example of turkey I think we talk about different things, is not that turkey will become more Islamic forbidding alcohol, become more intolerant when it makes punishable to critic the Islam and when push Islam’s value as country values and Islam as official country’s religion…

          • gregblandino

            It has come out that the policeman in this video was himself a French Muslim named Ahmed Merabet. I guess he cared enough about this comic magazine’s right to criticize Islam that he took a bullet in the head for it. Would he count as French French, or just a son of immigrants who happens to live in France? Does he fall under the muslims who are invading the whole of Europe, or post Enlightenment defender of free speech?

          • Zappa Frank

            I didn’t say ALL Muslims are at fault and have to be expelled, just those that find their values in contrast with Europeans values. This is obvious..
            About whether he should be consider French French or soon of immigrants I would like to point out that Europe is the home of Europeans, you can be assimilated in the culture if you want, but to make of someone a European takes more than to get a passport or a citizenship, we should not forget that even in Europe exist nations and ethnic groups…..he is French if he recognize himself in the values, culture and history of French people…did he recognize himself as part of a nation with that history, habits and culture? If yes he is French, if he thought I’m here but all those things are not related to me than he was t French.

          • Irvin

            Amen to that, brother. It’s like they went to an indian restaurant and complain why the restaurant don’t serve chinese food.

          • Kai

            Whoa, Paul Carr reader?

          • gregblandino

            Yep. This is a John Dolan piece under the pen name Grey Brecher aka “The War Nerd.”

          • ClausRasmussen

            >> How many Islamic countries invaded by Western ones

            Almost _all_ countries on the face of Earth have at some point in history been invaded by the West, yet only Islamic countries need that excuse for their violence and ignorance

            Islam is a backward religion rooted in traditions that made sense in the desert 1500 years ago but are wholly unsuited for the modern world. This is why Islamic countries suck, not just compared to the West but compared to almost all other high cultures of the world

          • gregblandino

            We are invading Islamic countries right now, not some point in history. Go to Indonesia, Morocco, or Turkey, which are Islamic, and they don’t “suck.” KSA sounds like a truly shitty place, but is also ironically the Islamic country with the most Western backing by far. My buddies dad had hit the hippy trail back in the day and gone through Afghanistan and Pakistan in the 60’s and had nothing but fond (hazy too) memories.

          • ClausRasmussen

            >> Not to get into much detail

            Why not? You could for example tell us what happened to a female poet that made fun of Muhammed and then compare it to what happened in France

            That would be interesting

          • gregblandino

            If your interested, post it yourself, eh? I’m not too familiar with poetry or this poet. The Mecca/Medina divide is pretty standard analysis of Muslim scripture and early history of Islam.

            Anyways, unless the poet was equivalent to say, the entire population of Canaan before the Israelites got there, then I stand by my assertion that Islam is about par for the course on mixing religion and violence. And until say, the entire Inca, Maya and Aztec empire come back into being, I’ll say Christianity’s got Islam beat on the genocide for religion’s sake front.

          • David

            Wow, can you cherry pick any more. During the ENTIRE New Testament, Jesus tells his followers to be peaceful and to love one another, ALL MEN. Now if you believe in Christianity or not, it is 2015 not the 7th century or the 11th century. There is NO justification for what Muslim TERRORISTS are doing. The few peaceful Muslims who speak out and say this are themselves targeted for killing. So don’t give me this crap about Islam being so peaceful. The people who practice it and are in control of countries are not peaceful, no matter how many excuses you try and make for them.. .

          • gregblandino

            The guy shot dead in this video is a French Muslim, went up against two guys armed with kalashkinovs armed with a pistol. Muslim organizations in France condemned the attack. Jordanians, Turks, KSA security forces and Iraqi security forces go up against terrorists every day, and mainstream clerics and Muslim jurists condemn these attacks every time. Murder and suicide are as proscribed in Islam as they are in Judaism and Christianity, mostly because Muhammed probably lifted those parts from the Bible/Torah.
            The Old Testament is not some small part of the Bible, it’s pretty much the first two thirds. Whoever wrote Revelations took almost a masturbatory satisfaction in the sufferings of the non elect. If Christianity had such a pacifying effect, why was literally the first action taken in its name when the Roman accepted it was to paint a cross on their shields and go fight a battle?

          • mr.wiener

            Je suis Ahmed..
            RIP.

          • gregblandino

            It isn’t that big of a jump when you get down to it….someone can be “Charlie” and “Ahmed” at the same time without a whole bunch of bullshit beside.

          • gregblandino

            As for the “few” peaceful Muslims…the Muslim policeman who tried to stop these murderers certainly was willing to put his money where his mouth was and gave up his life so that these cartoonists can mock his religion. The level of condemnation from mainstream French muslim groups is universal. In the war on terror, not a name I like but whatever, Jordanians, tribes associated with the KSA, punjab Pakistani’s, Iraqis, Kurds and I’ll say controversially the Alawite regime in Syria have spoken out and ACTED quite forcefully and at great personal/political risk to fight terrorism. This terrorist nonsense goes against the precepts of mainstream Sunni jurists, especially against the proscription against murder and suicide.

            On a niggling note, I’d argue that people in control of many countries are not peaceful (I’m thinking USA, France, UK, Russia, etc.), and that one of the purposes of the modern nation state is to be able/willing to go to war while maintaining an internal monopoly on violence

            As it is, If the Old Testament is not part of the Bible feel free to take it out? I mean, unless your willing to give Islam the benefit of the doubt on their sections of batshit 7th century raiding culture gibberish. Because I’d imagine you’d be surprised that most Muslims view that part of their religion the same as a devout Baptist views the Old testament.

          • Kai

            Dude, I think you’re straw-manning him.

            So far I haven’t seen any justifications for what Muslim terrorists are doing, any statement that says Islam is “so peaceful”. I don’t think he’s “making excuses” for anyone either. So far he looks like he’s introducing relevant nuance and context, and in general against oversimplifying “Islam”.

          • David

            No, I am not straw manning him at all. I think you have mi-interpreted the meaning of his post. I am commenting on the argument he is making, and the points he lists to try and make a convincing argument, that all religions are bad therefore we should not be surprised by or condemn the people who do this. Instead of getting involved in a tit for tat on what I consider his silly points I went directly to what I see as his argument.

          • Kai

            …and I feel you straw-manned him in the process of going directly to what you “see as his argument”. You made very clear (and weighty) accusations of what his position is but I don’t see an obvious correlation with the content of his comments. If you’re willing to connect the dots for me, I’m willing to consider them. It isn’t cool to just insist your interpretation (suppositions) is correct or valid and not bother to substantiate your accusations.

          • moop

            have you actually even read the bible?

          • ClausRasmussen

            There are certainly many examples of him instructing his followers to do so. ISIL is basically just following his words

          • gregblandino

            The takfiri school that ISIL ascribes to is a minority of a minority of salafists. Orthodox Islam’s views on murder and suicide are not at all reflected by IS’s actions nor too different from Judeo Christian proscription against the same. This isn’t strange because all three “Abrahamic” religions come from the same source..

          • mr.wiener

            “The holy land”…..more like God’s monkey house.

          • ClausRasmussen

            It doesn’t change the fact that ISIL is carrying out Muhammad’s commands. They’re acting no different from what he did

          • x1sfg

            I think you need a history lesson.

          • gregblandino

            Care to cite? I’ll retract if you can.

          • Teacher in China

            But the Bible talks of stoning people to death for committing various sins. There’s a lot of horrible horrible shit in the Bible that makes it least equally as bad as anything Muhammed taught.

          • ClausRasmussen

            I didn’t talk about what’s in the old testament, I talked about what Jesus (and Buddha) said and did

            It is instructive that much of what ISIS is doing today is just a reenactment of Muhammad’s life, and I think that reveal why Islam is a bad religion

          • Teacher in China

            That’s true, you did. My bad. However, I think the point still stands since what we’re actually talking about in a broader sense is how brutal a particular religion is. I’d rank Christianity via the Bible as just as if not more brutal than Islam.

          • ClausRasmussen

            Muhammed sat an example for his followers, that’s why we have ISIS. Jesus sat an example for his followers, that’s why we have hippies

          • Foreign Devil

            Most hippies were against organized religion and where more “spiritual” and interested in Indian spiritual paths.

          • Teacher in China

            Timothy Leary sat as an example for his followers, THAT’S why we have hippies.

          • Dick Leigh

            You’re kinda forgetting about the whole “Crusades” thing, where good upstanding Christians slaughtered innocent muslims and ATE THEM.

            Look up the Siege of Ma’arra.

          • frenchguy

            well , that tooks place about…800 years ago…your argument is invalid if we’re not living in medieval age.

          • Probotector

            …again, how many Jews are practicing stoning, vis a vis the number of muslims that are?

          • Alex Dương

            Very few. Perhaps a more interesting question is why do so few Jews and Christians follow the violent parts of the Old Testament, whereas many more Muslims follow the violent parts of the Quran?

          • Probotector

            Look up the Reformation.

          • Alex Dương

            So basically, the Christians don’t do it anymore because they got over killing each other hundreds of years ago?

          • Probotector

            Partly, but not entirely. It’s also due to the development of the faith to make it inclusive for all peoples and focus more on peace and pacifism in modern times. In any case, it’s irrelevant; they don’t do it any more, and those that do are a fringe minority. Basically, Islam, esp the Wahhabi sect, focuses on a fundamentalist Islam of the distant past, circa 7th century, where as Christianity and Judaism (Judaism especially) have become more liberal and passive in recent times. Now, it’s not absolute for all members of their respective religions of course, but it is for the vast majority.

          • gregblandino

            Except the reformation led to another 200 years of Christians killing each other over religion. Look up the 30 years war, Spanish Armanda, 80 years war, the aptly named Wars of Religion in France, and incidentally other wars that took on a religious tinge such as the English Civil War (puritans vs. anglicans). Best name of historical event has to go to the Defenestration of Prague. Not really significant body count wise, but a cool name nonetheless.

            Also, during this age of Christian fanaticism, the Europeans managed to get their genocide on in the Americas, all in the name of God.

          • Probotector

            genocide i the Americas? Is that what you’re calling it? The rest I’ll grant you, but the reformation paved the way for the Enlightenment and so forth, though they should have gotten their act together a lot sooner.

          • gregblandino

            Seen a Taino around lately? Notice how everyone in North and South America magically became Christian around the time the Spanish/Portuguese/English/French/Dutch/whatever came knocking or suspiciously ended up dead? In Spain and Portugal’s case, they both got several papal bulls okaying the killing and enslavement of the “pagans.” The Spanish had a trick or reading the “el Requiremento” (spelling is off?) requiring Indian conversion to empty coastline or in Spanish to uncomprehending Indians before they started the general killing/looting/rapine in the name of Christ. Their war cry was “Santiago,” which is St. James.

            I challenge the assertion the the Reformation led to a reduction in Religious violence. The Enlightenment….eh different post 吧。 You’ll notice all that fraternite, liberte and egalite never quite trickled down to the natives, who got the bayonet, sword, and grapeshot. It definitely led to greater internal tranquility inside European countries which helped them focus on violent colonial expansion.

          • Teacher in China

            How much violence against gay people is perpetrated by Bible thumpers every day around the world?

          • David

            very few and when it gets to the level of killing (again rarely) it is big news and seen as an abomination, not as the right thing to do. BTW MANY more gay people are killed by Muslims, even states like Iran sentence homosexuals to death..

          • Teacher in China

            More than in Russia? I’ve also heard that it’s very bad in the Ukraine. Neither of those are Muslim states.

          • Probotector

            So because it happens in Russia, all Christians are as bad or worse than Muslims, even if it’s not Russian Christians doing the persecution? Liberal moral equivalency folks!

          • Teacher in China

            I’m simply giving examples from the other side to counter-balance all the Muslim hating going on at the moment. Somewhere in that holy book of yours there’s something about “He who is without sin should cast the first stone”, right?

          • Probotector

            Not much. How much violence against gays is conducted by Islam every day around the world? Seriously, why must you hate on Christianity so much?

          • Teacher in China

            Not much, eh? You’re fooling yourself. Did you not pay attention to all the problems in Russia in the last year or two regarding that? All done in the name of the church.

            My honest answer regarding your other part is that I am using it as an example since it’s probably the one most people (including myself) are more familiar with. It’s the most common religion in many English speaking countries, which are places most commenters are from. To address other religions as accurately, I would need to spend a lot of time researching them, which I don’t have time to do at the moment.

            And I should make it clear, as I have on other parts of this thread – it’s the Christian fundamentalists that I have the biggest problems with. Radicals and extremists of any religion are unacceptable to me.

          • zeakyarteest

            Gay people are targeted by many other groups of people. Self-proclaimed Christians are an unfortunate fraction.

          • zeakyarteest

            It’s important to note whether those stonings were documentations or guidelines. Cause I’m not sure Jesus walked around encouraging people to murder each other.

          • Intranet

            The folks in the Old Testament were pretty violent. That’s where Judeo-Christianity and Islam got their ideas. The difference is most Jews & Christians don’t interpret their religious texts as literally anymore.

          • Sharrma

            nore do the vast majority of muslims

          • Intranet

            Unfortunately, a large percentage of Muslims still do – in far greater proportions than Jews and Christians. That’s why the world has the Islamic terrorist problem it does right now.
            And what’s just as disturbing, is that a huge number of Muslims sympathize with these zealots, and an even larger number support fundamentalist religious law and want Sharia law – even when they’re living in Western countries or non-Muslim countries in Asia. IIRC, around 1/3+ of Muslims in a poll conducted in various Muslim communities around the world (in NON MUSLIM countries) wanted fundamentalist Sharia law to be imposed.

          • Sharrma

            I cannot comment on a poll I have not read.
            Can you explain what you mean by “still do” ?

          • Intranet

            I mean the majority of Muslims don’t aren’t terrorists and aren’t violent, but a large percentage of them unfortunately “still do” resort to terrorism and violence, and even a larger percentage literally interpret their religious texts.

            As for polls, for example, polls such as this are quite disturbing: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

            40% of Muslims polled in the UK (idk if they had a credible sample size or not) wanted to impose certain aspects of religious Sharia law. Immigrating to Britain and then wanting religious law kinda defeats the entire purpose of living in a secular country ruled by secular law.

          • Sharrma

            I don’t see in the report anything about them being immigrants. However I do agree with that if you live in the UK, which is multicultural and secular that sharia law would be inappropriate. I don’t find it disturbing though as it wont happen.

          • Intranet

            It’s still disturbing due to the irony and hypocrisy of these immigrants who want Sharia law. These people probably emigrated from their home countries due to religious freedoms in the UK, and for economic opportunity. These freedoms and economic opportunity are only made possible thanks to SECULAR law. It’s hypocritical that they’d now want to implement their very own form of religious oppression onto their adopted secular home. Why did they even bother to leave their home country in the first place? If you immigrate to a nation, you should assimilate to its culture and values. If Irish people immigrates to Saudi Arabia, they wouldn’t tell try to tell the Saudis to adopt Catholicism and obey the Pope.

          • Sharrma

            English common law was created by Alfred the great from the ten commandments, the Magna carta drafted by the Arch Bishop of Canterbury,Bishops shape law in the house of lords and the official religion of the UK is Christianity. Doesn’t sound secular.

          • Intranet

            1) English common law was descended from Norman law, not the “10 commandments.” The 10 commandments are 10 extremely oversimplified tenants that was absolutely worthless in actually carrying out law or addressing different situations. English common law had far more nuances. And the commandments themselves were actually partial rip offs of Mesopotamia’s Hammurabi’s Code.
            2) English law is greatly influenced from secular Greco-Roman laws (Pagan societies), and Viking Norman culture (Pagan).
            3) I don’t think you understand what secularism is. Secularism is when government is kept separate from religious institutions. Thus, secular law is developed from the government instead of decreed from religious institutions. Just because something is drafted by a Bishop does not make it secular law if the Bishop does not create the draft from primarily religious sources.
            4) Sharia law not only considers itself a word of God, but tries to implement controls that operate as law…and it fails spectacularly because it was tailored for an 8th century Arabia. Sharia as it was written has no place in a modern society unless it updates itself accordingly.

          • Arzugul

            1)sharrma is right your wrong, English common law was created by Alfred the great.

            https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=hogc8SihCjoC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=alfred+the+great+and+our+common+law&source=bl&ots=yep9VS7Qr5&sig=BQxGqtqv2cQlYNRt20VLu_tL9HI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BUO_VPmsGMTU8gWpgYHgCw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=alfred%20the%20great%20and%20our%20common%20law&f=false

            https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=Fn2_A8ZEHmAC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=alfred+the+great+and+our+common+law&source=bl&ots=hwjOH1ftFe&sig=bjMXgas6yZYb7sgEiL_RteLZ-jw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BUO_VPmsGMTU8gWpgYHgCw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=alfred%20the%20great%20and%20our%20common%20law&f=false

            http://www.englandandenglishhistory.com/anglo-saxon-history/alfred-the-great-the-first-english-king-871-ad-to-924-ad

            2) English law was greatly influenced, by canon law (christian) and Roman law (christian)

            3) Bishops sit in the house of Lords

            4) sharia law is not a person, so does not consider itself anything. Sharia law is constantly changing, adapting with the times. Sharia law works spectacularly in many countries.

            The UK is not secular: Oath of allegiance

            “I, (Insert full name), do swear that I will well and truly serve our Sovereign Lady Queen Victoria in the office of (Insert judicial office of), and I will do right to all manner of people after the laws and usages of this realm, without fear or favour, affection or illwill. So help me God.”

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_%28United_Kingdom%29

          • Intranet

            1. You have an incorrect idea of what secularism is. Secularism is the separation of church and state, and that the laws of man should not be controlled by religious scripture. Just because the oath of allegiance has a reference to God doesn’t mean its laws are religious. None of the modern UK’s laws are actually directly derived from religious texts. The US declaration of independence, money, and post WW2 pledge of allegiance references God as well. But it’s clear in the US Constitution that the US is a secular nation with secular laws through the separation of church and state.

            2. Alfred the Great blending “Christian principles” into law isn’t the same as creating law from religious texts. For example, there is no law mandating that people not work on Sunday, or mandate that they pray to Jesus, or mandate that they have to go to church. If you want to go all the way back to the early middle ages, then you’d have to accept secular Roman law as a equal if not larger influence (Roman law developed long before Christianity was around).

            3. Bishops in the House of Lords aren’t using religion to exercise political control to make laws out of religious scripture. They certainly aren’t clamoring to implement fundamentalist Christian law. They’re there to read prayers and start the day. They’re also supposed to represent people of ANY religion, and not only Christians.

          • Intranet

            If Catholics immigrate to Saudi Arabia, then should the Saudis allow them to implement Catholic law and obey the Pope without following the local Saudi laws? Would ANY Muslim-majority country allow any non-Muslim people to do this?

            Sharia law (and ANY religious law) itself is anti-thesis to a modern state founded on secular law. Only secular law prevents non interference of religion in government, equal treatment of minorities and religious groups, etc. Any religious law would inevitably result in heavy handed discrimination against anyone not a part of their religion (eg. See middle ages Europe, or most Muslim countries today with Sharia).

          • Arzugul

            which catholic law are you talking about ?

          • Intranet

            That was a mistake on my part – I didn’t mean Catholic Law. I mean Catholic (or any religious) principles that becomes a basis for governing everyday life. The fact of the matter is, only in a secular society can you have equal treatment of religions.
            When you allow one religion to take over the government to implement religious public policies and religious law, anyone who isn’t a part of that religion will suffer.

          • Zappa Frank

            they can have in their country, not in ours, simply because the sharia is against our principles. .. Even if they decide to obey by free will (and what about the parents that kill daughters that want to live like westerns?) still means that they are not blended with our values, because our values is the opposite, than they cannot be integrated.

          • Sharrma

            What do mean by ” Our principles”, by that I take it you mean your own principles.If they are citizens of Britain, then their principles are as much British as yours.

            The Arch Bishop of Canterbury & the Lord Chief Justice disagree with you as well.

            Lord Phillips has stated said that;

            ‘in cases where its principles did not come into conflict with the laws of England & Wales they could be followed without legal interference”

            further he proposed that;

            “It was not very radical to advocate embracing Sharia Law in the context of family disputes, for example, and our system already goes a long way towards accommodating the Archbishop’s suggestion. It is possible in this country for those who are entering into a contractual agreement to agree that the agreement shall be governed by a law other than English law.”

            He was responding to the Archbishop Dr Williams statements that;

            “as a matter of fact certain provisions of sharia are already recognised in our society and under our law” -and that “the application of sharia in certain circumstances – if we want to achieve this cohesion and take seriously peoples’ religion – seems unavoidable?”

            The Archbishop opened his lecture by noting importantly that the very term sharia is not only misunderstood, but is the focus of much fear and anxiety deriving from its ‘primitivist’ application in some contexts.

            As such he said that “sharia is a method of law rather than a single complete and final system ready to be applied wholesale to every situation, and noted that there was room, even within Islamic states which apply sharia, for some level of ‘dual identity’, where the state is not in fact religiously homogenous.”

            He concludes his lecture with the comment:

            “if we are to think intelligently about the relations between Islam and British law, we need a fair amount of ‘deconstruction’ of crude oppositions and mythologies, whether of the nature of sharia or the nature of the Enlightenment”

            http://rowanwilliams.archbishopofcanterbury.org/articles.php/1135/sharia-law-what-did-the-archbishop-actually-say#sthash.y0gbRZ4z.dpuf

            http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/media/speeches/2008/speech-lord-phillips-lcj-03072008

          • Zappa Frank

            our principles are laicism and secularization principles.. the archibishop doesn’t have any title to speak since we don’t live in a religion country and you seem to ignore this. is our country sharia will never be allowed

          • Sharrma

            It has already been firmly established that the UK is not a secular country.
            It has a official religion, the Queen is the head of that religion. The Bishops sit in the house of lords making law.

            The origins, basis and principles of English common law was written by Alfred the great directly from the bible.

            the oath of allegiance ends with “so help me God”
            The national anthem begins with “God save…”
            Sunday is a day off as its the Sabbath.
            Easter day is a official holiday (to celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus), the list goes on and on

            The 2.7 million Muslims that are UK citizens have as much right to have some of their culture incorporated, do they not.
            It would not effect you anyway as your not Muslim anyway.

          • Zappa Frank

            not at all, see, you don’t understand that UK IS a secularized since religion doesn’t have ANY relevance on politic and laws, the origin is completely irrelevant since now the society is laic 100%, else would be illegal to be gay, pre marriage sex, blasphemy and so on, while is not at all. Muslims have NO right to get any law incorporate , simply is not their country, is not their culture… if atheist go to Saudi Arabia can have the right of go around in bikini because is their culture and does not affect others? I don’t think.

          • Zappa Frank

            Is not? So how come that laws permit so this that is against religion?

          • Intranet

            The first sentence says “British Muslims” – these are immigrant Muslims or post 1st-gen British Muslims descended from immigrants.

          • Intranet

            For example, this study shows that a large percentage to a majority of Muslims literally interpret Sharia law as the word of God.
            http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

          • Sharrma

            You have showed me two polls one conducted in the UK by the Daily Telegraph (sample size unknown) which showed that although 1/5 sympathized (understood the feelings and motives) of the terrorists. 99% thought their actions were wrong.
            The second poll conducted in muslim countries showed
            “at least half of Muslims say sharia is the revealed word of God” why does this surprise and fill your heart with horror ?.

          • Intranet

            My first comment was “Christians and Jews don’t interpret their religious texts literally” – yet your response was that most Muslims didn’t either. The fact that Muslims wanted Sharia law as the word of God clearly disproves your statement. Half of Muslims, and a huge majority of Muslims in the Middle East are religious fundamentalists who literally interpret the Koran as the word of God.

          • Sharrma

            Your mixing things up. To Begin with you realize of course that the Quran comes from Allah Almighty through the Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings upon him), so it is the word of God. As much is “tho shall not kill” in the bible, accepting that does not make you a fundamentalist, does it ?
            Also you realise that there are different branches of Islam, ie Sunni, Shia..etc that interpret the Quran differently. Then within these branches there are different schools of thought, who again interpret things differently.For example within Sunni, there are five different schools,Ẓāhirī Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i and Hanbali.
            Then within these schools there are different groups.
            So not unlike Christianity, there is much debate over meaning and interpretation of verses in the Quran.

            Sharia law comes from the Quran, the Hadith , debate and precedent, it evolves.It therefore is based on the world of God.
            Where most non-Muslims get stuck up on Sharia law is that they think (or want to believe) that Sharia law is practiced by all Muslims as the Taliban practiced it.This is far from the truth
            For example the Hanafi Sunni in kyrgyzstan the Hanbali Sunni in Saudi Aradia and the Shafi’i Sunni in Malaysia apply Sharia law vastly differently in emphasis, scope and punishments.

          • Intranet

            The Mormons say the Mormon Tablets are also the word of God, and obviously contradict the Muslim idea that Mohammad is the last prophet. The Jews say the Old Testament is the word of God, and that Jews are the promised people, not Muslims. Christians say that the New Testament is the word of God, and that Jesus is divine and the son of god – which is in direct contradiction to the Koran. These are all Abrahamic religions, yet they contradict each other. Everybody and their mother will say their religion is the one true religion and their religious text is the word of God.

            Interpreting words literally and not in context makes people fundamentalists. If Muslims think the world is actually 6000 years old and created in 7 days as literally stated in the Old Testament, they are moronic fundamentalists just like evangelicals. Of course there is debate over the Koran – those who are willing to accept this debate and accept different interpretations as legitimate, and willing to accept that the Koran is either figurative or partially incorrect – these folks are not fundamentalists.

          • Intranet

            The vast majority of Christians & Jews in the developed world have progressed beyond literally interpreting their religious texts as the word of God. Otherwise, they’d still think the world was created in 7 days 6000 years ago, and would still be fighting Muslims in Crusades right now. Jews would still be stoning adulterers and gays like they do in the Middle East.
            Religious fundamentalism of literally interpreting your religious texts as the word of God has NEVER been a good thing in human history.

          • Intranet

            The people polled in that UK study were British Muslims, who are arguably more liberal than Middle Eastern Muslims. The fact that almost half wanted Sharia law to replace secular law – despite the fact that secular law was what gave them their religious and economic freedoms in the first place, is hypocritical and disturbing. (see other post)

            I’ve read other polls that say a large number of Muslims in other non-Western nations actually thought the actions of terrorists were correct.

          • Sharrma

            Malaysia is a secular country, with both sharia courts (only muslims are tried in sharia court) and secular courts, with freedom to worship any religion you want.

            To use your own pollster.

            http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/#sharia

            “In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians. And in most countries, the prevailing view is that such acts are never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies.”

          • Intranet

            And Malaysia’s Sharia-secular mix court system doesn’t work well because:
            1. It heavily favors Muslims over non-Muslims.
            2. It’s a constant battle between secular courts and Sharia courts.
            3. Islamic authorities are trying to take over secular courts
            Overall, Muslims are favored over non-Muslims in marriage & divorce, there are issues with forced conversions, and some parts of Malaysia passed the death penalty for people trying to leave Islam.

            See here: A guy converted to Islam to take custody of the kids from the wife.
            http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/world/asia/02malay.html

          • Arzugul

            very interesting poll, very clear evidence that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide do not support the actions of terrorists.

          • David

            troll. You just made the most ridiculous connections/justifications.

          • gregblandino

            How is the who what?

        • Teacher in China

          As I mentioned above – what about Christian fundamentalists bombing abortion clinics and murdering abortion doctors all in the name of their religion. Seems just as crazy to me as the Islam stuff. We could go on and on discussing examples of religious craziness in the world because, honestly, it happens ALL THE TIME.

          • biggj

            Yeah no one mentions this fucking nut.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

          • RagnarDanneskjold

            He didn’t kill Muslims though, only commies. That is political violence, not religious.

          • biggj

            It’s was religiously motivated and politically motivated. The guy hated Islam and thought he was part of the knights templar and shit. Religion had a lot to do with this….and the fact that he is fucking nuts.

          • RagnarDanneskjold

            What about environmentalists bombing biotech research labs? What about crazy people shooting up schools? You can find crazies in any group, the issue is how the group responds and what motivated them. The jihadists are not crazy and upwards of 20% or more of global Muslims support violent jihad. When given the chance to vote in elections, they have often voted for jihadist/extremist parties. Even in moderate Muslims countries such as Indonesia, there is a radicalized element. Nearly every place in the world that has Muslims bordering non-Muslims, is a site of violence or civil war instigated by Muslims.

          • Teacher in China

            “You can find crazies in any group” – that’s exactly my point. Where do you get your 20% number from? Source, please. You’re also going to need to provide examples of countries that voted in “jihadist/extremist parties”. And then there’s the “instigated by Muslims” part….yeesh, you have a lot of work to do.

        • biggj
        • Intranet

          Islam is mostly prevalent in poor countries. Poor countries are already predisposed to a high level of ignorance and violence…so it’s not a surprise that they would interpret their religious texts literally and be accepting of violence.

          • Sharrma

            10 poorest countries by religious majority:

            1. Tokelau, religion 100% Christian.

            2. Democratic republic of Congo, Religion 95% Christian

            3. Zimbabwe, religion 85% Christian.

            4. Somalia,religion 99% Muslim.

            5. Burundi,religion 90% Christian.

            6. Liberia,religion 85.5% Christian.

            7.Niger, Religion, 99% Muslim

            8. Eritrea, Religion 50% Christian.

            9. Central African Republic, religion 80% Christian.

            10. Malawi, religion 68% Christian.

            The 10 countries with lowest literacy rates, by majority Religion.Although I’m not sure ignorance relates to illiteracy.

            1. Burkina Faso, Religion 65% Muslim

            2. South Sudan, Religion 60 Christian

            3 Afghanistan , Religion 99% Muslim.

            4. Niger, Religion 99% Muslim.

            5. Mali, Religion 90 % Muslim.

            6. Chad, Religion 54% Muslim

            7. Somalia, Religion 99% Muslim.

            8. Ethiopia, Religion 62% Christian

            9. Guinea, Religion 85% Muslim

            10. Benin, Religion 43 % Christian

            most violent countries by murder rates and religious majority.

            1. Honduras , religion 98% Christian

            2. Venezuela, religion 92% Christian.

            3. Belize, Religion 97% Christian.

            4. El Salvador, Religion, 73% Christian.

            5. Guatemala, Religion 99% Christian.

            6. Jamaica, Religion 61% Christian.

            7. Swaziland, Religion 83% Christian.

            8. saint Kitts and Nevis ,Religion 97% Christian.

            9. South Africa, Religion 79% Christian.

            10. Colombia, Religion 90% Christian.

            I’m not sure where this leaves your argument.But you may need to re-write it to say:

            “Christianity is mostly prevalent in poor countries. Poor countries are already predisposed to a high level of ignorance and violence…so it’s not a surprise that they would interpret their religious texts literally and be accepting of violence.”

            But you wouldn’t write such a thing as you would consider it a unfounded outrage.

            References:

            http://www.care2.com/causes/10-countries-with-the-worst-literacy-rates-in-the-world.html

            https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/the-poorest-countries-in-the-world

            http://list25.com/25-most-dangerous-countries-according-to-global-peace-index/

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/10/worlds-highest-murder-rates_n_5125188.html
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Bank

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency

          • Intranet

            My point was the reason why the vast majority of terrorists in the world are Islamic fundamentalist was because they grew up in a world of ignorance and poverty. But since you’ve brought up the fact that so many Christian nations are poor, (yet they don’t create terrorism or widespread repressive religious laws), I guess that means Islam itself is the cause of terrorism and religious fundamentalist repression.

          • Intranet

            If you say poverty and ignorance is not the cause for religious fundamentalism and violence in the Islamic world, then the problem must be with Islam itself, no?

          • Sharrma

            What I’m trying to say, if I was not clear, I apologize. Is that Poverty, ignorance and many other social factors for example feelings of disenfranchisement, hostility and oppression (internal and foreign) can, has and does led people of any religion or no religion to become violet.

          • Intranet

            The irony of dictators is that they ferment unrest and possibly build up latent hatred, yet they’re also the only ones keeping religious fundamentalism at bay. The American led removal of dictators in the Middle East seems to have unintentionally caused a huge spike in religious fundamentalist violence.

          • redgirls
          • Intranet

            And btw, why don’t Muslim men have to wear the hijab? Why do only women have to cover their face? It seems like the dress code for the more conservative sects of Islam supposedly is to promote modesty, but in reality is quite different for men and women – and really contains double standards.

          • Sharrma

            probably for the same reason most non-muslim men dont wear skirts and dresses.

            modesty is apart of our religion and culture .The Quran instructs both Muslim men and women to dress in a modest way:
            “Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest” (surah 24:30)

            The clearest verse on the requirement of the hijab is surah 24:30–31, asking women to draw their khimār over their bosoms.

            The extent of modesty depends somewhat on sect and region. I don’t see a double standard as men dress modestly as well.

          • Intranet

            Well, in the West, women can choose to wear suits and pants, and a man can choose to crossdress and wear a dress or skirt. A few decades ago, society told women they had to wear skirts and feminine clothing, and were discouraged from wearing clothing for men – but that time has been widely recognized as sexist and discriminatory.
            Sure, there’s a modesty thing in Islam, but why aren’t men required to cover their faces too? Why are only women supposed to “not reveal themselves” except to family members? Why can’t women simply wear a robe and a turban like the men do as a demonstration of their modesty?

          • Sharrma

            In most muslim counties it’s the womans own choice as to how covered they want their face to be. As you can see from my avatar, my face is not covered.
            Why would I want to reveal myself to unknown men ?

          • Intranet

            You can’t simply say it’s a woman’s choice when the women are pressured by their families and the local interpretation of their religion to do it.
            You have your head covered. Why don’t the men also cover their heads with scarves in the same way? You say you don’t want to reveal yourself to men – that creates a double standard. Why is it only the woman’s responsibility to keep herself hidden – but men don’t have the same responsibility? Why don’t men “keep themselves hidden” to unknown women as well?

          • Sharrma

            firstly many Muslim women in Malaysia SGP and Indonesia don’t cover their head, it’s their choice, I choose to, but not at work.
            In many countries men do wear a keffiyeh, or ghoutra or skull cap.In Malaysia the tarbush is commonly worn by men.
            Men do have a responsibly to be modest, it just varies.

          • vincent_t

            No, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia are never an Islamic State, These nations are secular state, with Islam being dominant religion and Muslim being the majority, while in Singapore Islam is minority.
            And even in these secular states (except Singapore), the Muslim women do have pressure from local Muslim community to put on the head cover, more so when you are at countrysides.

          • Alex Dương

            Islam is the official religion of Malaysia, so it’s not a truly secular state in the sense of no official religion.

          • vincent_t

            It is not a “full” secular state doesn’t make it an Islamic State. It is just secular state with “official religion”

          • Alex Dương

            It’s not an Islamic state. But with Islam as an “official religion,” I wouldn’t consider it a secular state either.

          • Sharrma

            Do you consider the UK to be a Christian or secular state ?

          • Alex Dương

            Again, neither. The U.K. has an official religion. It isn’t a theocratic Christian state, but by virtue of having an official religion, it isn’t secular either.

          • Sharrma

            I did not say Malaysia,Sgp or Indonesia were Islamic states, in another post I have already said Malaysia is a secular state.
            I have no knowledge about the country side but in Selangor and Kuala Lumpur where I have friends who rarely if ever cover their heads , they say they are not pressured to.

          • Intranet

            Like I said, it’s not really a choice when there’s:
            1. heavy societal pressure (you’re seen as unchaste, etc)
            2. heavy family pressure (you’re seen as unchaste, worth less in marriage, etc)
            3. Men’s keffiyeh, caps, etc mostly just cover the top of the head, and not the face…whereas women have to wear gear that generally covers the face. (eg. complete face covering in Saudi Arabia, or a scarf that covers everything past your cheeks in your case)
            It is an inherent unequal requirement of modesty.

            It seems that women have to be “more modest” and men have a less stringent modesty requirement. It’s important for women to be chaste and virtuous, and a woman who has been with many men is seen as less of a person. But if a man has been with many women…it either doesn’t matter, or he gets a pat on the back. For example, they value virginity in women but not in men. Hypocritical, no? Of course, this problem also exists to a lesser extent in Western nations, but they don’t have religious excuses for it.

          • Arzugul

            lol

          • Intranet

            The difference is one is the one on the left has a choice to wear whatever she wants without legal or long term repercussions. The one on the right will be stoned to death or imprisoned in many Muslims nations if she walked around in public in a bikini like that.
            Sharia law or any religious law society are ultimately extremely biased towards oppressive patriarchy and extremely hypocritical. There is no real choice.

          • Guest

            There are many tribes and people in the world where it is normal for females to wear no clothing. If they walked into many Muslim nations, they would be stoned to death or imprisoned. You can try to justify it by claiming it’s Muslim’s women’s choice, but in the end, it comes down to the fact that they don’t have a choice b/c there isare always legal, social, and often violent repercussions – there is no real choice.

          • Intranet

            Furthermore, there are many tribes and people in the world where it is normal for females to wear no clothing. If they walked into many Muslim nations, they would be stoned to death or imprisoned. You can try to justify it by claiming it’s Muslim’s women’s choice, but in the end, it comes down to the fact that they don’t have a choice b/c there are always legal, social, and often violent repercussions – there is no real choice.

            In Western nations, women can choose to wear little clothing or a lot of clothing. They don’t have to fear people calling them whores in public, don’t have to fear imprisonment, and don’t have to fear people stoning them to death like in many Muslim countries.

          • vincent_t

            I like the way you wrote your reply. You have done extensive reading and post your comment backup with lots of valid data. Bravo for that.
            But if it weren’t of oil production, quite a lot of Islamic countries would fall into the list.

      • Karze

        Is your five fingers same? Tell me honestly.

      • Karze

        The founder of Islam Mohamed was army general who founded Islam on the blood of his sword by exterminating the Native religion.

        Do you see church or temple in Saudi Arabia.

      • Karze

        When 2000 year old 200 feet twin Buddha statues was dynamited to pieces by Taliban in 2000/01 in Afghanistan Buddhist didn’t go on rampage. Even there was hardly a street protest. The Buddhist nation requested statues to be transferred to another Buddhist country.

        But Mullah Omar said why care about piece of stone (Buddha statue). But Muslim are outraged at cartoon.

        What did Buddhist countries reacted after the destruction of Buddha statues. Buddhist country such as Japan donated life-saving incubators for Afghans hospitals.

        • Alex Dương

          Personally, I like Buddhism, but if you’re suggesting that Buddhism is free from this kind of violence, you remember this incident? It was only a few years ago.

        • Teacher in China

          I agree that in this context, Islam is ridiculous and has gone way too far in responding so violently. But, for example, take the blowing up of abortion clinics, which also often kills innocent people, in the US by extreme Christians, or the murdering of abortion doctors. My point is, every religion has its crazy cult side, and I think it’s unfair to single out Islam. Buddhists may be less violent, but it’s still a cult.

          • RagnarDanneskjold

            Yeah, one crazy side is literally a handful or a few dozen people that you have to go searching on Wikipedia to name. The other has literally dozens of violence incidents in the past month. You can probably find as much Muslim violence against non-Muslims in one month, versus what Christian or Buddhists do in a decade.

            Oh, and the crazies in Islam are behaving exactly like the founder of their religion.

          • Teacher in China

            “You can probably find as much Muslim violence against non-Muslims in one month, versus what Christian or Buddhists do in a decade.”

            Sounds like even more work for you. Good luck.

          • gregblandino

            If I’m in the West and convinced I need to go to Muslim lands and kill Muslims for whatever reason, be it political or religious or what not, I can just join the military and pretty soon I’ll be shooting/bombing/napalming my way through a Muslim country. You’ll get paid, trained, housed and fed as a kicker. We export our violence out.

            Not that everyone in the military is like this, but it definitely absorbs the majority of crazies who think violent action is necessary against Muslims. If you count civilian casualties inflicted by Western armies against muslims versus civilian casualties inflicted by Muslim armies/terrorists against Christians I imagine the West wins by a long shot.

      • Peter

        It is foolish to say that all religions are cults and although Islam may have started as cult, it has, sadly, developed into one of the worlds most successful religions. Sad indeed, particularly from my Christian perspective. (This will irritate some, I’m sure)

      • Irvin

        All bad drugs have their own degree of destructiveness just like religion. While in my opinion all religions are bad, islam IS the worst among them all.

        • Teacher in China

          Ok, that I can agree with a little more. I’m still not sure about it being the worst (I hate Christian fundamentalists with a passion), but I get your point anyway.

          • RagnarDanneskjold

            OK so you’re an anti-Christian bigot. That clears things up.

          • Teacher in China

            I have no problem with Christians. There’s a MASSIVE difference between them and Christian Fundamentalists.

      • Strangerland

        All I can say is, there is a reason why in Crusade, Christians couldn’t win against those moslems during those periods.
        Everyone who knows history knows The Islamic Golden Era, so it must be the decline of this era, which impacted its’ followers in many ways, that caused these whole “Moslem against the world” debacle.
        I don’t condone these kind of people, but everyone better stop being high and mighty about this. Just be thankful that western’s era of enlightenment- from technology to science to medicine- had “elevated” us from similar circumstances/doctrines/inhumane practices where enemies can be slaughtered like holy wars. These centuries where our ancestors’ rapid changes and development, the “Great Leap Forward” if you will, made it possible for our society to actually competed and defeated these societies where Islam thrives which once upon a time, were considerably “better” be it in technology, science, medicine, and maybe even humanity. Don’t forget that during Islamic Golden Era, these nations actually have a lot of inventions and were building civilizations too.
        It’s just too bad that they lost in paces to our ancestors, if they never lost- if their inventors found electricity or invented machineries or even guns first, it’s likely that European conquest fever wouldn’t carry the same impact around the world and maybe history would be very different. Wouldn’t surprise me if KKK members became the terrorists of the world instead.

        Again, I don’t condone these people.
        When you see the bigger picture, the fact that they:
        -are fighting with Hindhus, Buddhist, Christians, Catholics, Atheists, Wiccans/Pagans, etc2
        -are fighting with Americans, Brits, Indians, Thais, Phillipines, Burmese, Chinese, Africans, and now French(and maybe more to come)
        is definitely baffling. Surely, you can’t see the list and think that all of these religions and people/nations….are the bad guys. Like, what’s the chance, is this world now full of bullies who bully moslem? That everyone else, every other nations are in the wrong? That’s a very very silly thought.
        There is something very very wrong in Islamic teaching as religion, that it now find its followers facing basically more than half of the world population as enemy.
        Or maybe it’s because they haven’t made the necesary steps to evolve with the era, so they’re stuck with outdated tools in an era that simply can’t pander to its outdated tools.
        And if they didn’t right this error soon- I have concerns that it wouldn’t bode well for Islam’s longevity as religion for the future.
        As for Christians- and many other religions- maybe this Islam situation can be horrible warning of what’s going to happen when you’re stubbornly insisting on using outdate teachings to cope with the evolving era. I mean, come on, you can find remnants of these relics in Christian communities too- like people who are against LGBT movement or their marriages…I always laugh at these people who would condemn during the gay marriage debates but think they’re different from people like Russians or Moslems- when in fact they’re exhibiting similar kind of attitude and way of thinking with these “Moslem hardliners/ Communist Russians”.
        Sorry if someone disagree with me- but this is how I see it, if you’re deadset on thinking that being LGBT is sin, that LGBT monogamous marriage between two consenting adults is wrong simply because your holy book told you so, then you should be able to understand why these moslem hardliners are the way they are.

      • Strangerland

        Oh and btw, I used LGBT as example in my previous post to highlight that religion followers are generally the same at its core.
        I probably can even use other examples too, for examples “value of women”. We can be pooh-pooh ing at societies where women are still treated worse than how women generally treated in western countries, but let’s not forget that even in “enlightened countries” too, there are still relics of the past in the form of anti-feminism guys who think women should know better, should stay in the kitchen, should be used as housewife and valued only based on their appearances, etc2.
        This is proof to me that all civilizations generally were the same in the distant past- it’s just our luck that we move out from that level faster than them. And even then, not so much, considering how many misogynistic men still exist even in said enligthened societies.
        That’s all I can say for now- this is my opinion so don’t bother to reply if you just want a fight- there’s no use to troll me because I have opinion. Thanks for reading :)!

      • Probotector

        …and how many of those “cults” preach outright murder, dumbass?

        • Teacher in China

          I think focusing on what is preached is less important than looking at the actual actions of the followers of a given religion. If we’re going to talk solely about what is preached, then it becomes even more ridiculous to single out Islam from the other religions because every religion preaches or has preached violent dumb bullshit.

          I think if you studied the numbers (and I think that would be very hard to do), you’d find that Islam attacks motivated purely by religious beliefs (vs those motivated by territorial and political problems, which I believe make up a significant portion) are not all that different in number to attacks on abortion clinics, gay and transgendered people by other religions. Muslim attacks get more press because the Western world needs an enemy, and the press love whipping people up into a frenzy so they can sell papers.

          • Probotector

            Your reply is succinct, but what you said is not the case. Please don’t claim that the west needs an enemy. The western media always says “this is not the true face of Islam” when terrorism committed by Muslims occurs. It is simple fact that terrorism/death/murder committed by Muslims these days far out outnumbers that of anything else.

          • Teacher in China

            Yes, they say “this is not the true face of Islam” SOMETIMES, but wow are they eager to over-report on any possible incident they can. They know what sells papers and gets viewers, and that’s all that matters. As for your last statement – numbers and sources, please.

        • gregblandino

          That was a Muslim police officer who went up against the terrorists in this video and took a bullet in the head for free speech.

      • Alan Dale Brown

        Good analogy … Let’s apply it by considering the drug aspirin. It relieves pain and reduces the risk of heart attack … it has minimal side effects, although people can develop Rhye’s syndrome. I think it has relieved a lot of suffering in the world.

        Sorry, when you accuse people of making lazy analogies, don’t be lazy yourself; you have to look at the details. If you don’t believe in a religion that’s okay; if you don’t think religion should be promoted because it’s not correct, that fine. However, it’s still wrong to accuse the worse crimes of religion on all of them, because it’s simply not accurate.

        • Teacher in China

          Obviously by drugs I mean non-prescription addictive pleasure-seeking drugs. Thought that was made pretty clear from the context.

    • Intranet

      Did the founder of Mormonism fuck some 11 year old girl, then fucked over 40 other women who were the wives of men in his congregation?

    • mr.wiener

      Depends on which sect or offshoot of Islam you are talking about…otherwise it’s like comparing the church of England with those idiots who protest at soldiers funerals because ‘Merica is too tolerent of gays.

    • Zappa Frank

      the point are religions like you said in another post, islam is worse than others on this point because many of his followers are violent. However every religion is for definition irrational and the best way to get ride of them would be do as china does, religions have to remain a private thing, not public. On this point china is many steps ahead

      • Irvin

        Indeed, it’s one thing I like about china, you can believe whatever crazy shit you want, but just keep it to yourself.

        • Arzugul

          unless you live in XinJiang or Tibet

    • Poodle Tooth

      Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.

      • Irvin

        After reading the many arguments above, perhaps not.

      • UserID01

        Your words are as empty as your soul. Mankind ill needs a savior such as you. (That is, if this is where you got that particular quote…)

    • Small twon

      All religions are cult until they are not.

      • Dr Sun

        I agree

  • JayJay

    This goes back to the Bill Maher/Sam Harris and Ben Affleck debate. Liberals should be able to criticise a religion, not through fears of being branded a ‘racist’ or ‘bigot’… but violence of such scale does have an effect on expressing one’s opinion towards Islam. Just look at how many news outlets had shown the actual cartoon that caused offence. Not many… Voltaire is crying in his grave.

    • firebert5

      I saw an article this morning that said France was debating its free speech allowances again after this incident, debating what should be allowed in the media. Because when terrorists slaughter innocents, its a guy who drew a cartoon who is at fault.

      • Dr Sun

        I whole heatedly disagree with you on this. To excuse the actions of terrorists (those who pulled the triggers) by laying the fault/blame at the feet of people exercising their right of free expression is beyond belief.
        One of the pillars of a free society is the freedom of speech and expression, now of course that can led to upsetting others, so what.If your so offended by a cartoon, then respond in like draw your own cartoon, not by picking up a AK47, in response.
        Terrorists are terrorists, they pick up the gun, plant the bomb because they cannot pursued people to support them through peaceful ways.
        Be they religious fundamentalist terrorists like ISIS or Boko Haram, political terrorists like the Red Army faction and the IRA.They are all the same, they see absolutely nothing wrong in murdering people to enforce their will upon others and to excuse their actions by blaming the victims, is insane.

        • firebert5

          I will let it slide because clearly sarcasm is not always detectable over the Internet . Try reading my comment again but end with a half-smirk and see what a difference that makes.😉

          • Dr Sun

            sorry, but I didn’t/don’t detect any hint of sarcasm in your post.

          • ClausRasmussen

            His use of “innocents” was the give away. Anyway, sarcasm can be difficult to detect on the internet, a smiley would be helpful

      • voster

        Your last sentence may be said in sarcasm, but misses the point a bit.

        The fact that they have a debate is an indication of free speech itself. It’s good that they can question it.

        • firebert5

          Fair enough, but it certainly is an unreasonable response.

      • Teacher in China

        Came across this today. Not sure I agree with it, but it is a point worth talking about.

        http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jan/09/joe-sacco-on-satire-a-response-to-the-attacks?CMP=share_btn_fb

    • Luke the Duke

      It’s a cartoon that is highly offensive to a large segment of the population. I can see why a media outlet would feel that there is no need to actually reprint it in their coverage.

    • voster

      Voltaire isn’t really crying. The apocryphal and probably inaccurate quote attributed to him, but actually reflecting his views, were, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.

      That’s to say, the media can disapprove freely with the cartoons and refuse to show it, and this does not infringe on free speech. Supporting Charlie Hebdo’s right to say whatever they like does not mean endorsing it.

      No news agency should be forced to show anything. That, in itself, infringes free speech.

      • JayJay

        Right… they should not be forced to show anything and at the same time not be intimidated not to show it… which one is it then?

        • voster

          Who’s forcing who? They make their own editorial decisions. That does not mean force.

          Any implication of force, of intimidation, is yours and yours alone.

  • Zappa Frank

    We have to realize that there is someone that takes our tolerance for a weakness, with people like this there cannot be any tolerance because they cannot understand.

    • voster

      Tolerance is, of course, a strength – holding back takes more strength than striking.

      To give up tolerance in a society of 60 million on account of a pair of gunmen would, however, be weakness.

      • Zappa Frank

        Is not a pair, because the presence of extremists is well known, so far all the people went to fight for iss are extremists and there are others went to fight for al Qaida and so on.. Nor is a thing of a country of 60milion people, because this thing involve the whole europe, before it happened in holand with Theo Van Gogh , in Madrid, in London, …do we have to wait for more? When someone else will die because we are tolerant with people that don’t know any tolerance what will we say?

  • sil

    Tourists need to know the truth about Paris instead of these stupid myths. There wouldn’t wouldn’t be so many visitors if the foreigners realized how dangerous and hostile the city is.

    • icup ✔️

      a city cannot be dangerous, it’s the people… with that said, there are dangerous people in every city.

      • UserID01

        Yeah, it’s pretty much a matter of statistics. The more people there are in one particular place, the greater the odds of encountering one who is irrationally rude or violent or obnoxious or even a marvelous combination of all three.

    • Claude

      Don’t mistake French rudeness for hostility, that’s just how they communicate. Take heart in knowing they aren’t treating you any different then they treat one another. Paris isn’t any dangerous than any other major city in the world.

    • Guest

      I wouldn’t call Paris dangerous or hostile. Yes, there are immigrant dudes who shout a lot and seem happy to hang about while women do the actual work… but that’s more annoying and offensive to Western sensibilities than dangerous. And honestly, when a country has gallavanted around the world colonizing and subjugating entire regions for the past few centuries (as most Western countries have)… you can’t really complain about a few of those immigrant populations ending up back on your doorstep.

    • UserID01

      I’ve been to Paris twice, once on purpose and once because of an airport transfer on my way to Finland. The Parisians can be rude, but I wouldn’t call them hostile or dangerous. Just wedged a little too far up their own assholes. I never felt threatened, though. Just thoroughly annoyed.

      And being a born and bred New Yorker, you’d have to be a massive, throbbing, Syphilitic dick to really get on my nerves to the point of annoyance. Parisians have accomplished that in spades.

  • monster

    i know a guy, he left his country coz he can not stand people from middle east.
    when talk about it, he is so angry even.he hates so much that some white women even marry these arab men.
    guess he did sth over the top, he told me that it’s already hard for him to get nice job,also people around dislike him for what he said.

  • Teacher in China

    Fuck organized religion of all kinds.

    • Sophie

      Yeah, fuck the thousands of Christian hospitals that help in 3rd world countries, fuck all the Christian organisations that supply disaster relief, fuck all the ministers that give comfort to the dying, join couples in matrimony and parents a pattern to bring up their children away from harm. Na, better you just fuck yourself, because nobody else will.

      • YourSupremeCommander

        “fuck all the ministers” – no its the other way around, all the ministers fuck boys

        • Ramos

          All? Your argument is beyond rational reasoning, some of you people should try a little less hatred towards different groups of people.

      • biggj

        Religion is responsible for more death and destruction than any other social practice on the planet. I’m not saying it’s all bad…but… It’s done more bad than good.

        • Ramos

          Sure, Mao managed 80 million before mass, Hitler 50 between songs at Sunday school, Stalin etc, etc, What about Kaiser Wilhelm and his 1st world war, gee some sermon! Pol Pot, Idi Amin + the rest of the choir, Money, greed, resources (oil etc) and territory cause wars, the local vicar probably doesn’t.

          • James

            You could make the argument that cults of personality necessarily are exclusive of religion because they act like religions themselves. How can you worship a god when your great leader should be your god? In this respect you can see that it’s the same kind of thinking that causes problems. You can’t say that Hitler committed atrocities in the name of anti-theism. He did it because he thought he had the only truth and everyone else was wrong. It’s six and two threes.

          • Teacher in China

            Well done, I totally agree, especially with Mao. What he established was something that exactly mimicked the cultish brainwashing of religion.

          • Teacher in China

            Actually, what you say about Hitler is true – the man was a Christian, after all.

          • Irvin

            Yeah, he’s a roman catholic, and even if he weren’t, his followers definitely were. They were Lutherans, they were taught to hate jews long before the holocaust.

            Religion really do suck.

          • Teacher in China

            Yeah, Martin Luther wrote some horrible shit about Jews. It’s too bad because I respect him for what he did with the 95 These, but man, he really lost me on all that Jew-hating shite.

        • Karze

          As if Mao was not responsible for millions of death.

          • Irvin

            So if something other than religion is just a bad as religion, it suddenly made religion good? You have some funny rationale there.

          • Alan Dale Brown

            It’s a matter of understanding the problem. Any ideology which allows violence towards those of other ideologies is a problem. Sometimes it involves beliefs about God, sometimes, it doesn’t. The Lord’s Resistance Army’s beliefs are threat to others; Quakers, not so much. They’re both Christian. Look at Rumi, a historic Muslim poet; he was famously tolerant. Granted, new age crystal starers appreciate him more than Islamists, but he was still Muslim in name.

      • Dawei

        Whether or not a Christian institution does some good the fact remains that organised religion is used by some to do great harm, including the Xian faith. There is plenty to cherry pick from in your good book. It is choca with His chosen people slaying the out group, misogamy, rape, incest, child homicide, anti-naked (yep Noha), and homophobic cruelty of the highest calibre all endorsed by God.

        Oh and by the way no one needs the Church to get married, face death, or for guidance on child rearing. The secular world works just fine, I know as I am secular.

        Have a nice day foul mouthed believer in invisible sky faeries.

      • Ryo Saeba

        So you’re saying if they weren’t Christians, they wouldn’t have any fucks to give?

        If they were nice people, they would be nice regardless if they believe or not. If they are nice only out of fear, then everything they do is just for selfish reasons.

        • voster

          You’re effectively saying that niceness is genetic, unaffected by the environment, or beliefs (whether it involves a deity or not) that we grew up with.

          Surely that’s not right?

          • Ryo Saeba

            You’re effectively thinking that if 1+1 =/= 3, then everything else = 3. There are many other factors that give a person morality. The simply fact that there are many many other religions and non-believers out there that are nice people proves that Christianity is not the cause for being moral.

            Think about it. Someone who is doing a nice thing because it’s morally right vs someone (Christians) doing something good so that their God can see and make a mark on their chart. I wonder which person is more selfless?

            If you think Christians are the only people on earth that teaches morals, you are sadly close minded and lack broad understanding of how morality works.

          • voster

            No, my point is that people can get their morals foom many places, including Christianity. I agree with you that they can get it without Christianity, but people do not choose what environment they are born into.

            That Christianity can provide a framework for morality, along with other sets of beliefs, does not invalidate it as much as it does any other sets of beliefs.

            You’re singling out Christianity for specific scrutiny illogically, when you can apply the same scrutiny to every other set of beliefs.

          • Ryo Saeba

            Point is, you can provide morals without the religious framework. Simply put, it usually causes more trouble then it’s worth. For example, the people that kill in the name of any religion always thinks they are morally correct. People that believe in religion usually think of themselves as better then people that do not believe in their faith. This is the “my religion is better then your religion and therefore I am a better person” mentality.

            I’m citing christianity because the OP of my reply cited christianity as the reason for helping others. Then you went and assume “niceness is genetic, unaffected by the environment, or beliefs.” I have no idea how you came into that conclusion. Just because I said something is not the cause doesn’t automatically mean everything else is.

            My point being, do something nice because you want to do it, not because someone is watching.

      • Teacher in China

        The sole motivation behind the organizations that set up those hospitals and disaster relief is to win converts to their religion, to bring religion to the “ignorant savages” of the 3rd world. The individual people who get involved may not all be of that one collective mindset, but the organizations are, I assure you.

        Yes, they join couples in matrimony, as long as the couples fit their pre-determined notion of love; if, god forbid, you should happen to be gay or transgendered or sometimes even of two different religions, then good luck.

        “parents a pattern to bring up their children away from harm” I’m not sure what this means, so I can’t respond to it.

        “Na, better you just fuck yourself, because nobody else will.” My wife would disagree with that.

    • Apothis

      Gee, you sound like someone else in China we know…..Organized religion is key to a healthy civilized society.

      • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

        I think Iran is a clear indication for ‘no it’s not’.

        • Guest

          and read history books about Europe’s dark age. Weak and disorganized religion is the best one.

        • voster

          Single sample? Irrational conclusion?

      • Dr Sun

        you mean like when the Taliban ruled ?

        • Apothis

          Organized religion not a forced cult.

          • Guest

            Until you aren’t a member of the dominant organized religion…

          • Zappa Frank

            the duty of all organized religion is to make as much possible of followers.. how can be to make people believe in something completely irrational a good thing for the society is yet to be demonstrated.

          • voster

            Rationality is not really the basis of any society. In fact, it’s irrationality. Our love of sports, our national identity, what makes us tick, the very fundaments of societies are the irrational foundations of what we like and pursue.

            The easiest argument against yours however, is that your subjective notion of “good” cannot be generalised to everyone else.

          • Zappa Frank

            True about good and bad, not that I change my idea, but would be hard to demonstrate. I would say that if you are rational you cannot believe in religions, and the ration is what made evolve our society and made us live better, however would not b sufficient by far..
            But I don’t agree with an irrational foundation of the society, on the opposite society and rules were necessary when humans garthered in order to have a better life with cooperation..nor I agree that sports can be taken as comparison with religions since are not something that make you base your life or your ideas on.

          • voster

            1) You can believe in religion if you’re rational. True rationality require as high as possible an evidential threshold to believe in something and as things stand, there is neither enough evidence to both prove and disprove the existence of supernatural deities. In which case, the rational answer to the question of most religions’ belief in deities is actually “I don’t know”.

            It can be further be rational to hold onto spiritual beliefs, especially if it produces biological effects (even if a placebo) that can be beneficial to our wellbeing.

            2) You use subjective terms such as “a better life”, which cannot be defined rationally, because of its subjective nature. And yet, it’s what you call a fundament of society. Hence, we all start with subjective, irrational concepts first, then build rationally on it.

            3) I disagree on sports. A lot of people base their lives and thoughts heavily on it.

          • Zappa Frank

            1)no. If the rational answer is “I don’t know” than a rational people cannot believe, because to believe imply the answer is “I know, God exists”
            The supposed benefit of spiritual beliefs since are placebo effects can be replicate in various ways that do not imply to believe.
            2) better life is not subjective, or better I subjective only to a certain extent, there is a part that is not subjective at all, because to live without mortal hepidemy, without famine, without wars, live a longer life, and so on I don’t think are subjective, unless someone is masochist right? Progress of humanity are made by ration and ration is in opposition with religions, maybe not always as values, but for sure as thinking process.
            3) I’ve never seen someone that pretend to apply sports rules in real life. Sport remains in his part, sport doesn’t pretend to teach people or to force people to do something for their “moral”. If you run 100m there is no moral taught behind it, and you will go around preaching to people about the 100m morals benefits or you will say that if they don’t run than they are bad people and so on….really I cannot see how sports and religions can be compared.

          • Dr Sun

            pretty hard to determine the difference in most cases.

      • Zappa Frank

        on the opposite, we should follow the Chinese example on that.

      • Teacher in China

        I know how to be civilized, even without religion. Wow, imagine that. A human being capable of being reasonable, compassionate, and caring with knowledge of right and wrong, yet all somehow without a Magical Flying Spaghetti Monster to guide me….

        • Dawei

          Hey don’t knock our deity, may his noodlely appendages bless you my son.

      • Small twon

        Dude, read history books about Europe’s dark age. Weak and disorganized religion is the best one.

  • Alex

    All 3, and the north african that shot a traffic cop this morning in France, ALL OF THEM… had a criminal record related to terrorism.

    Yet they were still in France, free. Because if you jail them or kick them out you’re a racist…

  • Alex

    Saw those comments too…. And there were quite a few.

  • Zen my Ass

    I suspend my judgement till the day we’ll know all the details and the background of the massacre: who financed, backed and instigated the killers and such.

    • icup ✔️

      two guys with 1 car and 2 ak(s) with ammo can manage without outside financing… just seems like another extremist attack against the media for badmouthing them, nothing new.

      • Zen my Ass

        I know and what’s happened was obscene. I want to know everything though.

  • Alex

    Next time a xinjiang guy commits a terrorist attack against China we should say the same to them “they deserve it, they talked bad about xinjiang people”

    • Feiniaozy

      Well don’t worry, I’ve seen those kind of comments by your folks enough times, be it earthquake or train station slaughter. Maybe next time you can try to care more about opinions from real people than netizens?

    • Kai

      A lot of “us” have, do, and will. It’s really shameful and we shouldn’t encourage this sort of tit-for-tat pettiness.

  • Luke the Duke

    You have to feel sorry for Islam. It’s gone and replaced Judaism as the entire world’s go-to scapegoat.

    • Matt

      I feel more sorry for the people that Islam scapegoats.

      • voster

        Islam scapegoats people? Or are you talking about a small number of people?

        Just in case you were scapegoating 1.6 billion people for the actions of a few, don’t want that happening!

        • Matt

          You could have just as easily picked apart his “the entire world” choice of words. We’re clearly speaking in generalities; relax.

  • biggj
    • bujiebuke

      “…Thor doesn’t really have a strong hammer”

      Mjölnir can level mountains with a single blow, get your facts straight TYT.

    • Dr Sun

      “what is this little weapon that hurts us so much ?…..A pen “

      • Zappa Frank

        the pen is mightier than the sword

  • YourSupremeCommander

    Publishing hateful and racist cartoons is not “journalism”.

  • FYIADragoon

    Time for another crackdown in Xinjiang….

    • YourSupremeCommander

      Time to drop some PLA boots in France… bad guys are scared of AK-47s that don’t hesitate.

      • guest

        not sure the PLA like fighting people who can shoot back

        • vincent_t

          Check out Korean War.

  • Perseus Wong

    Wow. This Chinasmack report failed to mention that Charlie Hebdo’s office was firebombed by “French” Muslims back in 2011. And that the cartoonists and editors were already targeted by a variety of French Islamists group who had issued fatwas for their “offensive” jab at Muhammad. Part of an ongoing trend in Europe.

    Also no mention of the large so-called “moderate” Muslim migrant population in Europe who are always contesting their adopted countries liberal secular values. Abetted by their self-defeating western “multicultural” advocates who are completely clueless about the Muslim world’s generally acceptance of the Suras and Hadith about establishing a global caliphate. …for fear of being labeled Islamophobes.

    We don’t make a distinction between “moderate” and “extremist” when it comes to Christians trying to insert their doctrine in public policy. Why do the Europeans make an exception with Muslims?

    • firebert5

      “We don’t make a distinction between “moderate” and “extremist” when it comes to Christians trying to insert their doctrine in US public policy. So why do we tip toe around this derivative of the Abrahamic religions?”

      Because one of them is far more likely to shoot you in retaliation over perceived slights. Not defending (I think it’s abhorrent) just offering an explanation for the double-standard.

    • Claude

      I’ve yet to see a report on TV about the firebombing in 2011. Strange.

    • Kai

      I’m not sure we don’t make a distinction. I always thought we do make distinctions with Christians. There’s mainstream Christianity (and Catholicism), evangelicals, the “religious right”, fundamentalists, and downright cults. The Westboro Baptist Church is considered a “hate group”.

      I’m not trying to say modern Christian extremism is equivalent to Muslim extremism. I’m just saying we DO make distinctions between “moderate” and “extremist” when it comes to Christians, inserting doctrine or not.

    • voster

      We don’t make a distinction between “moderate” and “extremist” when it comes to Christians trying to insert their doctrine in US public policy.

      We do. You’re just ignoring it for your own convenience.

  • Feiniaozy

    I don’t know what kind of friends you’ve been making here, at least my WeChat Moment and Weibo homepage are filled with “Je suis Charlie” sort of things today.

    • mr.wiener

      Well … if wanting people to have the freedom to make bad cartoons about people who could use a bit of criticism makes me a Charlie, I guess I’m a Chalie too.

      • Irvin

        Second that.

  • A Gawd Dang Mongolian

    It was inevitable someone takes that “Kill those who insult Islam” seriously. But given how the youngest surrendered so quickly, I don’t think they thought beyond that.

  • Eurotrash

    Before discussing this event, you need to educate yourself about Operation Gladio.

  • Stefan

    As we all know Islam is the religion of peace. :)

    • voster

      I once lived amongst 16 million Muslims as a non-Muslim. Nobody killed me :)

  • DC

    pls don’t make sh/t up…no one in the world except muslim extremists would have made that statement..

  • biggj

    ..

  • jikkk

    They were likely uighurs lol

    • Zappa Frank

      no they are not, because those are not French people, but immigrants or sons of immigrants that came in Europe for a better life, only to decide later that the Europe was not like they wanted and then try to change it. France has long retired from Algeria. it’s not like for uighurs despite similar methods

      • jikkk

        Uh except muslims of all stripes were celebrating this massacre. Muslims in Sweden were celebrating. So were those in Afghanistan.

  • biggj

    You are Charlie? I’m Justin, nice to meet you.

  • Claude

    The extremists want to further polarize an already polarized French Society. If you spend time around French people – even the most cool open minded will say things like” Those people are ruining France”. The object of these attacks are to gain more young alienated mid east men in the French suburbs to join the ranks of the of the extremists Muslims and its working. The French have to work harder to make these people a part of French society or these attacks are only going to get worse.

  • vincent_t

    Things gonna get worse once ISIS disband and the foreign fighters return to Europe. Honestly I’d be happy if Europe look to China and learn the brutal way the CCP handle the Xinjiang isolationist. Tolerance and human right are only for those who share the believe, not the one who abuse it. We just gotta face the fact.

    • voster

      Tolerance and human rights are concepts that can soldier on, even if a few members society break them every once in a while.

      A pair of gunmen and the tragic loss of 12 people are not enough to change the principles of a nation of 60 million. That’s tolerance. That’s the price of tolerance. But the fruits are plenty.

  • ClausRasmussen

    >> but individual acts should not be automatically associated with a religion

    Unless said religion prescribes the death penalty for blasphemy as Islam does.

    • voster

      Prescribing the death penalty is something outside the Quran in Islam. In fact, the vast majority of Muslims live under jurisdictions where there is no death penalty of blasphemy.

      To say that the religion prescribes this is highly inaccurate and a bit lazy.

  • vincent_t

    When majority of the muslim stays silence every time the extremist hijack their religion, I’d say they deserve it. They gotta do something if they hate to be labeled as religion of violence.

    • mr.wiener

      “Muslim leaders urge peace and understanding” is not as sexy a headline as “Hunt for kill crazed muslim extremists continues”.

  • Helen Malloy

    I think he is talking about America and the comment about African-Americans. We have been there since before the founding of the country fighting for equal treatment in society.

    Europe is an whole nother ball game.

  • Yes, this violence was perpetrated by muslims in the name of Islam. Yes, in the 21st century, Islam is driving more people to extreme acts of violence than any other religion. Yes, human beings who believe that we are beholden to an omnipotent being are more likely to commit heinous acts to appease that being.

    No, religion does not need to be revered and people’s beliefs about the world do not need to be respected. The only ideas that should demand respect are those that convey useful information about the world we live in.

    Religious apologists and over-empathisers are only prolonging the ignorance and violence born from religion. It’s high-time humanity divorces itself from its obsolete religious beliefs completely and fosters the steely-eyed objectivity we’ll need to survive the coming age of environmental disaster and class slavery.

    • 宋易

      Ah… the political religion of American Liberalism, shaking their finger at the religions of failed sciences. If the hypocrisy didnt stink so bad, I might be able to manage a chuckle.

    • voster

      Proponents of eugenics thought that this was the only rational way to view the world.

      What is “useful information”, as you put it, is entirely subjective. Get rid of organised religion, and other sets of beliefs will clash, even if they do not contain a deity.

    • jin

      Why is it so hard for people to understand that what these terrorists are doing has nothing to do with Islam? They are just using the religion.
      Normal Muslims that I personally know, are just normal people.

      • Nothing? You mean like literally or hipster-ironically?

        • jin

          Nothing as in the religion it self didn’t tell them to do this.

          • Sharrma

            Islam considers all life forms as sacred. However, the sanctity of human life is accorded a special place. The first and the foremost basic right of a human being is the right to live.

            Al- Quran 5:32

            “Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression.”

            Al- Quran 5:8

          • biggj

            Except for non believers……we kill them and cut their heads off :)

            You got to understand these holy books can be taken anyway you want to. And cherry pick certain part that support whatever it is you are doing. What means one thing to one persons can mean a completely different thing to someone else….. When they are just man made stories….like every other fiction book out there.

          • Sharrma

            who said that ?

          • biggj

            Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

            Now im sure this does not mean literally go cut the heads off non believers. I’m sure it was a reference to some specific thing like a battle or something. But to these crazy extremist guys they take it literally. I’m not just saying Islam is the only one thats like this, Christianity is the same. If you are looking for violent things,…you can easily find it.

          • Yes!

            “Now im sure this does not mean literally go cut the heads off non believers.”

            Well, for starters, Saudi Arabia in this present time and age still execute people who give up membership of their Islamic faith.

          • biggj

            I know man, it’s nuts. I mention this in a post to sharrma. This is what evil people do. The mafia does this. You are going to kill someone for not believing something?? It’s stupidity at the highest level.

            And I was saying the text in these book can be interpreted 1000 of different way. Which leads to what we have here today.

          • Sharrma

            Much has been posted on this thread showing a misunderstanding of Islam, Muslims and the prophet Mohammed (peace and blessing upon him)

            To have a meaningful, clear, peaceful and educated
            discourse on this subject of Islam violence and terrorism, we need to translate, interpret and put into the correct context the words of the prophet
            Mohammed (peace and blessings upon him).

            As such we should examine the 3 most misquoted verses of the Quran, used by anti-Islamists to say Islam promotes, supports violence and terrorism. Then look briefly at what Islam really teaches about love, peace and tolerance.

            Al-Quran verse 8:12

            “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved so strike them upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”

            It should be noted that “strike” does not translate to chop off.

            Al-Quran verse 9:5

            “So when you meet those who disbelieve in battle, strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either confer favor
            afterwards or ransom them until the war lays down its burdens. That is the command. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them Himself,
            but He ordered armed struggle to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah – never will He waste their deeds.”

            The word used most often in Quran, that is so often mistranslated as kill; slay; or slaughter is not jihad,
            it is Qital and if you look to the Arabic, you will quickly understand this word in today’s usage would clearly be combat.

            Naturally, just as there in the U.S. or Europe we must stand up for righteousness and strive to prevent oppression, aggression and tyranny. This is the proper usage and understanding for this term, as you will discover while passing through the Tafsir and explanations by top scholars today.

            Scholars of Quran tell us the verses dealing with this topic are specific and not intended to imply a general meaning for just anyone to decide to go around
            combating non-Muslims. The early Muslims had been driven out of their homes and turned out into the desert to starve. After finally, relocating in Medina,
            verses came in Quran instructing them to make hajj (pilgrimage) back to Makkah.
            Finding their way blocked and after several years of making agreements and treaties that the others continually broke, the Muslims were at last, told they
            could now fight in combat against the tyrants who had so horribly mistreated and abused them in the past. However, this would only be acceptable to Allah if
            they remained within very specific limitations. The word “Qital” in Arabic in this instance refers to “combat” rather than what some have used “kill” because the word “kill” is far to general, while the word “combat” appropriately describes what is intended by the usage in this passage. Allah Knows Best.

            It should also be noted the usage of the word “Fitnah” in the same verse denotes a horrible condition, not unlike what we find today when there is terrorism and tyranny against the moral and just society at large. It would be
            easy to properly understand the meaning as, “Engage them in combat, even killing them, until the state of “Fitnah” (terrorism) no longer exists in the society and people are free to worship Allah by their choice.”

            We can see these verses are not designed to promote terrorism, but rather these are very orders from Above to the Muslims to be the first of those who stand
            out aggressively against all forms of terrorism and oppression.

            Once this is in place, there really isn’t a question anymore, due to the necessity as we see today, to prevent and subdue enemies of freedom, liberty
            and justice. In other words, we could easily say Allah ordered believers in the Quran to wage combat against terrorism – 14 centuries ago. And the “struggle against oppression, terrorism and tyranny” in the Arabic
            language, it is called, “Jihad.”

            It can be said then that Islam declared the WAR ON TERRORISM – over 1,400 years ago!”

            Al-Quran verse 47:5

            “And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them
            and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”

            This verse, chapter 9 verse 5, is often used as evidence that Islam allows killing of non-Muslims, but what is not recognized is the context and history behind these verses. The history of this verse is that when the
            Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him) began preaching the unity of God he was persecuted
            for 13 years, much as the Prophets Abraham and Jesus were. Since Muslims who were being persecuted were encouraged to leave for safer areas, rather than create disorder, the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing upon him) and his followers migrated to Medina.
            After they left, the Meccans attacked them in Medina on and off for a period of nine years.

            Looking at the context of the verses, it becomes obvious that the commandment of this verse only relates to those tribes who continued hostilities against the Muslims even after they had migrated.

            There is nothing in the Quran, ordering or even permitting the Muslims to ever attack innocent people whether they are Christians, Jews, or any other faith for that matter.

            Combat is only ordered against those who are attacking or killing the innocent Muslims or fighting against the established Muslim state.

            The contrary is actually true; Muslims condemn all violent acts against innocent civilians.

            The Quran is a Book revealed to people as a guide to the true path and in this Book, God commands man to adopt good morals. This morality is based upon concepts such as love, compassion, tolerance and mercy. God calls all people to Islamic morals through which compassion, mercy, peace and tolerance can be experienced all over the world.

            Al-Quran 5.32

            “If anyone slew an innocent person it would be as if he slew the whole mankind and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole mankind”

            Finally on the subject of Tolerance:

            Al-Quran 5:118

            “If You should punish them – indeed they are Your
            servants; but if You forgive them – indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.”

            The prophet Mohammed (Peace and blessings upon
            him) further reminds us that ;

            “From morning until night and from night until morning keep your heart free from malice towards anyone.”

            From “the Life of the Prophet”

            Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing upon him) sent a message to the monks of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai:

            “This is a message written by Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, far and near, we are behind them. Verily, I defend them by myself, the servants, the helpers, and my followers, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
            No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be changed from their jobs, nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from
            it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they (Christians) are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, this is not to take place
            without her own wish. She is not to be prevented from going to her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented
            from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation is to disobey this covenant till the Day of Judgment and the end of
            the world.”

            I pray to Allah to make it easy for all of us to find the
            correct meanings and teachings of Islam and allow us to share Islam with others, and forgive our mistakes and grant us His Paradise, Ameen.

          • biggj

            You just proved my point. The verses can be taken anyway you want. For good or for bad. Islam is alright. I have no problem with muslims.they are just people living their lives the best they can. I do have a problem with crazy fucking people trying to kill me over some book that is 1000’s of years old written by megalomaniacs who “spoke with god”. I can see believing things like this a 1000 years ago when they thought the earth was flat and the center of the universe and that stars where just light shining down from heaven. But come on…..if someone today said they spoke with god and told them to do whatever….well we would call them crazy. And how many people have senselessly been killed over religion? When you look at it logically…it’s such an absurd thing.

            Let me tell you the secret of how religions work….a simple word….. “Faith”. All religions need this to operate and have control over people. All faith is is believing something unconditionally without any proof. A great way to control people.With this word you can tell people the most crazy stories and they will be believe you. No religion is based on facts and proof….you need have “faith” to make it real. And the promise that is you follow this book you will go to heaven or paradise or whatever.

            These books are made to control people….nothing more. What happens if you become a islamic apostate in an islamic country? You have a good chance of getting killed. That is controlling people with fear….that does not seem like a good thing to me. That like what the mafia does to it’s members.

          • Sharrma

            It is no secret to anyone that to
            be a believer you must have faith. Faith not only in the existence of Allah (God)
            but also in the teachings of the prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings upon
            him) but also those of the prophets like Jesus (peace and blessings upon him).

            How can you still say the verses
            can be taken for good or bad, when I have tried to show you that is only
            through deliberate misinterpretation and decontextualizing can they be used for
            supporting evil actions.

            On to your point of control. Can I
            ask you some questions?

            1. Do believe
            humans are born moral and ethical, or is this something we are taught?

            2. If taught
            were did these teachings come from?

            You don’t need to answer as they
            are simply rhetorical questions, as we all know deep inside us where the answer
            lies:

            A-Quran 6:151

            “Say: “Come, I
            will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from”: Join not
            anything with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of
            want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to indecent
            deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred,
            except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn
            wisdom. And come not nigh to the orphan’s property, except to improve it, until
            he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full)
            justice;- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear;-
            whenever ye speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned; and
            fulfill the Covenant of Allah. thus doth He command you, that ye may remember.”

            Exodus 20

            1.
            Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

            2.
            Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven
            image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the
            earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou
            shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a
            jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the
            third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto
            thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

            3.
            Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord
            thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his
            name in vain.

            4.
            Remember the sabbath day, to keep it
            holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the
            seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any
            work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant,
            nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the
            Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the
            seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

            5.
            Honour thy father and thy mother: that
            thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

            6.
            Thou shalt not kill.

            7.
            Thou shalt not commit adultery.

            8.
            Thou shalt not steal.

            9.Thou shalt not bear false
            witness against thy neighbour.

            10.Thou shalt not covet thy
            neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his
            manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is
            thy neighbour’s.

            I am fully aware that you as a non-believer will deny 1,2,3,4..and
            we can discuss that later if you desire, but for now can you tell me which of the other six
            commandments you consider as unjust or unnecessary “controls” ?

            The focus of this thread is that Islam supports terrorism and
            the killing of innocents. My position on this is that this is false.

            As stated in the previous post to kill innocents is prohibited
            in the Quran 5:32 and by Allah Almighty; Quran 6:151. For those who choose the
            path of terrorism, I would remind them of.

            Al-Quran 5: 29

            For me, I intend to let Thee draw on thyself My sin as well as thine,
            For thou wilt be among The Companions of the Fire, And that is the reward Of
            those who do wrong.

            Al-Quran
            5:30

            The (selfish) soul of the other Led him to the murder Of his
            brother: he murdered Him, and became (himself) One of the lost ones.

          • biggj

            “How can you still say the verses can be taken for good or bad, when I have tried to show you that is only through deliberate misinterpretation and decontextualizing can they be used for supporting evil actions.”

            You just answered your own question. So through misinterpretation they can be used to support evil actions. All depends on the readers take of the text. What means one thing to you could mean something different to someone else.

            it is man’s personality and upbringing which dictates his ethics and morals, and not religion.

            Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews ect we’re all pretty much the same. Our core values as human beings are basically identical. Things like being a good person, helping the helpless and defending the defenseless. Generally just being good people.

            Religions of all types set forth standards by which men should live their lives. Despite these ethical and moral outlines, history does not lack men who head Churches and Temples and act in outright immoral and unethical ways.
            Rather than religion, it is the individual’s personality and upbringing which will lead a man to live an ethically and morally “correct” life, and not religion. If a person grows up with a basic understanding of what is “good” and what is “bad,” the threat of damnation or the carrot of eternal life or reincarnation will not matter to such an extent.
            Religion works well for giving some strength in difficult times, and provides moral guidance for some, who may otherwise feel lost as to how one should act, but it is not a prerequisite for leading an ethical and moral life.

            Religion is designed to focus the people’s attention and energy on a single, unchanging, uncompromising and invisible supreme being who allegedly created an inferior human race just for some extra companionship and love for himself and then supposedly foisted a set of oppressive and in some cases arbitrary rules on them, which if broken would be met with unimaginable punishment.

            This keeps the followers in a continuing state of fear and compliance.

            They are afraid to question the intentions of this invisible being and they are afraid of even expressing their own individuality in many cases. Christians and others are taught that they have virtually no power to do anything except pray, worship and dogood deeds.

            They are taught to practice self denial and are told that their own will is totally irrelevant. Religious followers believe that they are yielding their will over to a benevolent cosmic individual who has single-handedly created the whole universe and has their best interests at heart when in fact they are handing over their will and freedoms to hidden groups of religious elites for the elites own personal gains.

            Now all this could be completely wrong. But its another idea. This makes more sense to me than praying to a sky god I have not seen.

          • biggj

            “The focus of this thread is that Islam supports terrorism and the killing of innocents. My position on this is that this is false.”

            Yes, I agree.

            “As stated in the previous post to kill innocents is prohibited in the Quran 5:32 and by Allah Almighty; Quran 6:151. For those who choose the path of terrorism, I would remind them of.”

            And those are good things to say…but then they turn around and shove this in your face.

            Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”

            Quran (9:73) – “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.”

            You just cant win….there is no fighting this. They are so set in their ways you cant change them. That is what religion does, good or bad. It makes you blind to reason.

            I have a question for you. Do you ever question your religion? Like maybe just ask why certain things are the way they are? Or why your religion is right…..which in turn would make everyone elses wrong, right? Just asking.

            but it’s like you and I….we will never see eye to eye on this subject. I question things too much….and I think you dont question enough….am I wrong? maybe…are you wrong? maybe….The truth is no one really knows.

            I’m not an atheist….i’m an agnostic. There is a “God”. Something that created all of this….but I don’t know who or what. Truth be told I don’t think anyone does. I just want facts and proof…and religion does not provide me with those.

          • Sharrma

            you did was answer the rhetorical questions by
            stating that in your belief

            “Our core values as human beings are basically identical. Things like being a good person, helping the helpless and defending the defenseless.Generally just being good people.”

            Preceded by that these core values are based in religious belief

            “Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews ect we’re all pretty much the same”

            Or is your belief we are born with these core values, your answer was no.

            “its is the individual’s personality and upbringing which will lead a man to live an ethically and morally “correct” life.”

            So apart from the religious basis of all humans “core values”what influences a person’s personality and upbringing. I think it fair to say, their parents, family, peers, poverty, education, strife, oppression, life
            experiences and perceptions of consequence. In addressing this we must examine this first.

            You kept excusing the evil actions of men with religion, either by proposing they justify their actions in the name of god or to defend god. And blame this on the region itself. We need to put this in context.

            Man is corruptible, fallible and able to lie. Be they a King, a politician and religious leader or whatever. Using the name of god or their position in a religion to further their own personal aspirations for power and wealth, no longer walk with Allah Almighty.

            Al-Quran 5:7

            “And remember the favor of Allah upon you and
            His covenant with which He bound you when you said, “We hear and we obey”; and fear Allah . Indeed, Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts.”

            The difference between belief/religion and organized religion.

            Your relationship with Allah is yours and yours alone. It can only be corrupted by you.

            On the other hand,Imams, Cardinals and priests,
            mosques, temples and churches may have been useful in the days when people could read, there was no internet or TV. But I agree with you they have a poor
            history and continue to show poor leadership.

            Secularist beliefs on religion

            Why religion is bad.
            1. A Power struggle between myself the individual (the new God) and the true God

            2. Prevents me from fueling my every narcissist desire as there may be consequences if I do.

            3. Would lead me the individual to live in Fear and compliance due to judgment.

            4. Expectations of having to do good deeds v,s my
            desire of being selfish.

            Secularist society, I’m not inferior to god, I AM GOD!

            However, the new Gods (myself) are taught they
            are not all powerful and their leaders foisted a set of oppressive and in some cases arbitrary rules (the law) on them, which if broken would be met with unimaginable earthly punishments.
            This keeps the new Gods in a continuing state of fear and compliance.
            They are forced to practice self-denial/control and are told that their own will is totally irrelevant. The new gods believe that they are yielding their will over to a group benevolent leaders (politicians and lawyers),who have their best interests at heart when in fact they are handing over their will and freedoms to hidden groups of financial and political elites for the elites own personal gains.

            The gods (secularists) are taught that they have virtually no power to do anything except consume, worship their individuality and wish for good deeds.

            You see, the only real difference is secularists believe punishment will only be a earthly punishment.

            What appears to drive your disbelief is that dislike the idea of being inferior to god and that you can’t see him.

            I can only answer that by saying if you opened your eyes and heart to Allah you would not just see him but feel his love.

            It is impossible the guide the man who is blind, deaf and who will not hold out his hand

            Having faith/ belief and adopting any religion is difficult for agnostics, because it’s not like car shopping, you can’t choose which colour (verses) to adopt and what seats (beliefs) you want and that’s what they want their very own individual fully customizable god/religion.

            Do I question my Religion, No my belief in Allah Almighty, the prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings upon him) and the principles of Islam are not in doubt. I do question and challenge how some people interpret and apply their versions of it on others.

            To me, my belief, my faith is a personal thing between Allah Almighty and me. Am I a good Muslim, I try to be. We all are temped every day by Satan and desire, when I’m out with friends and theyre drinking wine, I can smell it, I can see they are enjoying it. Am I tempted of
            course I am. When I see a cute handsome man am I tempted, of course, I am after all human. But all I do is remind myself that I take a step off the path, its hard to find it again.

            This leads us to Jihad. Another highly misunderstood thing, so what is it ?

            Jihad
            (literally meaning; struggle)

            1. The Greater jihad,“struggle within oneself”

            ·
            A commitment to hard work and achieving your goals in life.·
            Struggling to achieve a noble cause·
            Promoting peace,harmony or cooperation, and assisting others·
            Living the principles of Islam

            2. The Lesser jihad “Struggling against the opponents of Islam”

            Are there opponents to Islam? There is, some
            even on this forum. So how should we struggle against these opponents?

            I believe the first way is to live by the principles of Islam personally and within society, therefore demonstrating that we are no threat.

            Educating, non-Muslims about Islam comes a close second to me again to demonstrate that Islam in the modern world is a peaceful and tolerant religion.

            Now the difficult part, no one in the west has a problem it seems with Israel (a Jewish state) defending itself against aggressors and rightly so. However it appears they have difficulty applying the same principles to Islamic nations.

            Like it or not, true or false, many Muslims perceive the foreign invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan as attacks on sovereign countries by foreign powers and also an attack on Islam itself.

            On fundamentalism and Radicalization

            I will begin by saying I dislike the terms fundamentalism and radicalization for many reasons. I think they are media,political and terrorist creations that serve only two purposes.

            The first being to deflect attention away from the real causes of the conflict we find ourselves in and second as a Terrorist recruiting banner for the poor, ill-informed disenfranchised and desperate.

            You rightly brought up

            “Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who
            wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”

            A verse from 1500 years ago that applied when the Muslims were being attacked by the Meccans, hitherto 2001 barely uttered for hundreds of years.

            Unfortunately western powers at the time were more interested in overthrowing a dictator, they once supported but had come to dislike over weapons that didn’t exist, and chasing down a terrorist in a country he wasn’t in. With foresight and intelligence they may have realized what a can of worms they were going to open.

            Having lite the bonfire, they then proceeded to stoke it by installing the most unpopular governments possible and keeping hundreds of thousands of troops there for 10-14 years.

            Argued that dictatorships ( I assume he means the
            the dictatorships set up in pre-colonial countries) are an effective means of stemming Islamic fundamentalism, I argue the opposite they helped breed it and as each one has fallen, is falling, the problem escalates.

            Another question we need to ask is why have so many muslims from Europe got involved (radicalized), but not from the USA ?
            In my opinion the western powers completely and
            utterly are responsible for this massive rise in terrorism, but it’s better to blame Islam.

            As far as those Muslims being drawn into extremism and terrorism, they are like moths attracted to the bonfire you lite.

            I have said it before and I’ll say it again. I think they are wrong and misguided. They believe they are defending Islam, I don’t.
            I believe as Allah Almighty and the Prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings upon him) do, that the killing of innocents is wrong, very wrong.

            Defend your countries against invading armies yes, terrorism- NO

            After all

            Al-Quran 3:30

            “On the Day when every person will be confronted with all the good he has done, and all the evil he has done, he will wish that there were a great distance between him and his evil.”

            Those that go against the word of Allah Almighty, the prophet Mohammed (peace and blessings upon him) are not any longer on the path and cannot claim to be considered good Muslims or acting in the name of Allah or Islam any longer.

            It would be more appropriate for the media, Governments and posters on here to refer to them as Pseudo -Islamic terrorists.

            Al-Quran 5:8

            “O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do.”

          • That’s a lot of info, but it probably doesn’t matter because the media is never going to portray Islam as a peaceful religion. Instead, they will distribute stories that create fear and hatred and that is what most people rely on for their news.
            I suspect most people turn to religion for many of the same reasons, but without personal experience it is going to be difficult for people to differentiate propaganda from reality.
            I just visited some of the Mayan ruins and the guide told us about one of their rituals involving sport and religion in that culture.
            Boys were raised from a very early age to become the best athlete in their sport, to work hard and strive to become good enough to play in and win their “super bowl” where the losing team would chop off the winners’ heads.
            Sounds crazy to us, but It was considered one of the highest honors in that society.
            They were indoctrinated at an early age so that is what they believed to be true.

          • biggj

            “but it probably doesn’t matter because the media is never going to portray Islam as a peaceful religion. ”

            Exactly. If the mainstream media was run by islam,christians would be seen the same way.They have an agenda…And whatever the agenda is…the message is not in islams favor.

          • It is hard not to be influenced…
            In today’s world, you are forced to ask “cui bono” when you are evaluating “evidence”.
            Have you ever watched this guy?
            I suspect he offends a lot of people, but I find it interesting so much of the world believes it is OK for the media to slam one group, but not another…
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O3eaXCxRUM

          • biggj

            Yeah this first time I seen this guy. He makes some good points. He would get more respect maybe if he lost that crazy getup. lol

          • Fatima

            not many up votes, your christian brothers are displeased with you.

          • Yes!

            That’s really too much to digest. Nobody who’s not a Muslim is going to delve deep into it to understand it; there’s work to do, there’s the baby, we all have our lives to live. Besides, as you have implied, even your Muslim brothers who are now chopping off other peoples’ heads and raping women obviously don’t know what is true Islam. So, it’s up to the good Muslims – such as yourself – who don’t wish to be misunderstood to straighten the bad Muslims, to educate them, and looking as what’s going on in parts of the world, to take affirmative action to stand them down so that everyone can live together peacefully. Otherwise, you cannot blame the others for not understanding your faith, for tarring every Muslim with the same brush as the bad guys. Only Muslims can effectively rein in your fellow Muslims, and it must begin with the imams. Good Muslims keeping silent while the bad ones expand conflict and spread terrorism will only cause all Muslims to be seen as one and the same. With all due respect, you need to do more than just pray.

          • Dumb on so many levels.

      • biggj

        They only read the parts the go with their agenda like:

        Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

        And in the bible too there is shit similar to this.

  • Guest

    Democracy and human rights are excellent things. The country that opens its arms and expects the best of those it hosts is not the guilty party. The shame is on those who gladly lap up the benefits of their host country (the free education, the free access to information, being largely forgiven for petty crimes instead of losing their hands), but turn against their hosts when life stops being easy and convenient. You want to be powerful and frightening? Earn it. You’re in a country whose influence and institutions make that possible, through hard work. And frankly, some cultures would have encouraged these men to do just that. Cultures that faced no less prejudice from the dominant native population. But instead of looking in the mirror for their personal failings, these men chose to bite the hand that feeds. It’s the height of intellectual laziness, taken to a terrifying conclusion.

  • mr.wiener

    Breaking news…there has been a bomb explosion reported in a Parisian cheese shop….A police spokesman has said there is de brie everywhere.

    Don’t get up, I’ll punch myself in the face.

    • Kai

      Yeah…maybe too soon, dude.

      • mr.wiener

        You’re right… I deserve to be pushed into the river that runs through Paris for that.

    • jin

      Would normally laugh at this but…. it’s a bad timing for a bad joke wiener.
      Though I do like brie.

    • Dr Sun

      bad taste on this post

      • biggj

        If his post was in bad taste…than what is this? Or did you mean bad taste as in the taste of cheese?

  • fury

    dude. i am chinese . u dont understand what r we talking about. it is sarcasm of double standard of west media. google how west media report about kunming terrost. really make us sick. it is a kind of fight back.

    • Razorl

      Second this.

    • voster

      I googled and I found multiple different reports on it. There is more than one “Western media” and each reported it differently. And I’ve certainly not seen any reports that said that victims deserved it.

      • fury

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack#Criticism_of_western_media_coverage

        see wikipedia, english version is a little bit. if u understand chinese. u can see chinese version of wikipedia. lots lot of criticism towords westmedia, and US embassy. So we comment sep.11 is tragic traffic accident.

      • ClausRasmussen

        When Chinese people say “Western media” they often mean “some Western media” but except for that, he’s right: Some Western media characterized the attack as “terrorism” – with quotes as if it were not their opinion, some other media avoided the term altogether and were instead talking about an “Uighur attack”.

        “Some Western media” included heavy weights as CNN, AP, New York Times, Washington Post and even the US foreign department had to release two statements on the attack before they got it right

        I fully understand why the Chinese were upset about that and felt “some Western media” were applying double standards

  • x1sfg

    What the hell is the “Muslimification of Europe Hispanification?” And what do blacks and hispanics in America have anything to do with this incident?

    We all know what the elephant in the room is. Muslims need to take their religion back and show the world they recognize this isn’t the Middle Ages and that they can change with the times, or at least silence the ones who can’t. The world is getting more and more tired of the shit some Muslims are doing and it’s reaching a boiling point.

  • Chimp Body

    Here’s a list of terrorist attacks that have occurred so far in 2015… That’s right kids, 2015.

    2015.01.08-Iraq-Baghdad: A Sunni suicide bomber wades into a Shiite mosque and slaughters at least eight worshippers.
    2015.01.07-Afghanistan-Zhari: Taliban bombers take out two children gathering firewood.
    2015.01.07-Afghanistan-Baghlan: Six road workers are machine-gunned point-blank by Religion of Peace gunmen.
    2015.01.07-Yemen-Sanaa: A al-Qaeda suicide bus bomber scatters body parts and snuffs out thirty-seven lives at a college.
    2015.01.06-Pakistan-Nazimabad: Two Shiite brothers are murdered in their shop by Sipah-e-Sahaba.
    2015.01.06-Iraq-al-Jubba: A suicide attack on a mosque and the ensuing clash leave two dozen dead.
    2015.01.06-Afghanistan-Shekhzo: Three family members are modularized when fundamentalists fire a rocket into their home.
    2015.01.05-Nigeria-Baga: At least ten women are among over thirty killed during an assault on a village by Boko Haram.
    2015.01.04-Tunisia-Zaghouan: Religious extremists slit the throat of an off-duty policeman.
    2015.01.04-Somalia-Mogadishu: Four civilians are reduced to pulp by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
    2015.01.03-Iraq-Shirquat: A child and two women are among seven civilians disassembled by Religion of Peace bombers.
    2015.01.03-Iraq-Anbar: A local journalist is arrested and executed by the Islamic State for ‘being an infidel’.
    2015.01.03-Iraq-Garma: Fifteen Iraqis are lined up and shot in the back of the head by caliphate members.
    2015.01.02-Nigeria-Ambe-Madaki: Fifteen villagers are massacred when Muslim terrorists attack a Christian village.
    2015.01.02-Iraq-Baghdad: Sectarian Jihadis execute two dozen people and throw their bodies into a river.
    2015.01.02-Afghanistan-Lashkargah: Four bank employees are killed by a planted bomb.
    2015.01.02-Iraq-Tuz: Three civilians are kidnapped and executed by the Islamic State.
    2015.01.02-Libya-Sukna: Jihadists slit the throats of fourteen soldiers and three civilians.
    2015.01.02-Thailand-Narathiwat: A security guard at a school is picked off by Muslim gunmen.
    2015.01.02-Somalia-Galkayo: Teachers are among the casualties of a deadly car bomb attack outside a school.
    2015.01.02-Libya-Sabha: Fourteen local soldiers are captured and executed by Islamic State supporters.
    2015.01.02-Somalia-Baidoa: A surprise attack by al-Shabaab leaves seven local soldiers dead.
    2015.01.01-Afghanistan-Kapisa: One person is killed when Jihadis bomb a car.
    2015.01.01-Nigeria-Gombe: A suicide bomber detonates at the entrance of a church service.
    2015.01.01-Iraq-Basra: Three Sunni preachers are shot to death by sectarian Jihadis.
    2015.01.01-Iraq-Fallujah: Fifteen tribesmen are executed by the Islamic State.
    2015.01.01-Iraq-Baqubah: Mujahideen murder three people in their own home.
    2015.01.01-Syria-Aleppo: Terrorists fire rockets into a neighborhood, killing over a dozen.
    2015.01.01-Iraq-Samarrah: Two worshippers bleed to death when Sunnis mortar a Shiite shrine.
    2015.01.01-Iraq-Yathrib: Seven Iraqis are killed in a house by caliphate members.
    2015.01.01-Afghanistan-Jalalabad: Sunni hardliners murder a border guard.
    2015.01.01-Cameroon-Maroua: Islamists pour machine-gun fire into a bus, killing fifteen passengers.
    2015.01.01-Pakistan-Karachi: A Shiite doctor is assassinated outside his clinic by Sunni radicals.

  • biggj

    ..

  • Anon

    “Why are things so bad abroad?
    Can you people be a bit more harmonious?”

    That’s funny, as a French guy that’s what I think every time I read something bad happens in China
    I guess we judge other country without looking at ours

  • biggj

    haha

  • mr.wiener

    We did.

    http://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/our-people/apology-to-australias-indigenous-peoples

    I’m pretty sure the Americans have, and what nearly wiped out people would you be referring to in Europe?

    • Kai

      I thought the issue was to what extent people associated with something should apologize for things they weren’t personally involved in or responsible for. It’s like modern Japanese and the Second Sino-Japanese War.

      I thought the mainstream consensus was that such people shouldn’t have to apologize but should at least have some minimum level of awareness and sensitivity of history and the fact that sentiments can endure and be influenced by modern actions and behavior.

      • Zappa Frank

        we are slowly confusing apologizing with condemning. No one ask to other muslims to apologize, but to condemn. Some muslims did it already, some didn’t , some praised them.

        • Kai

          Good point. Even if both are expressions of distancing, there’s still a difference between apologizing and condemning.

          For clarification, I’m reacting more to vincent’s position that the “majority” of Muslims stay silent and they “deserve” the generalizations or prejudices against them as a result. As much as I understand how peers can change individuals and thus societies, I still find it really hard to get behind that sentiment.

          I felt Boris’s reply rightfully struck at the problem of generalizing blame and responsibility, and how that can be counterproductive.

          • Zappa Frank

            I think the point of Vincent, that to be sincere came in mind as well, is that inside the muslims community probably many knew who are those extremists and that were dangerous (apparently not only them)…and maybe even knew what were about to do, because those two persons had family, friends and so on.. now, someone that doesn’t do anything to prevent this while have the chance is someone that is morally responsible right? Why nobody did anything? why weren’t they reported? because probably those people, probably a part of the muslim community, for some reason, doesn’t fell the responsibility to protect the common community for act of terrorism, but feel responsible only for their inner musilm community (let’s not consider that a policeman killed was mulsim as well). Why? probably they are not compatible with the Europeans values as well..and think that is better defend muslims even if they do wrong things, or maybe even think that what has been done was right.. to be clear is just my speculation, could be all false, but those are questions that many are going to ask to the muslim community right now.

          • Kai

            I don’t know enough about the gunmen to make a judgement of that. I find it equally easy to believe those around them were ignorant of their ability to do this, didn’t take them seriously, or themselves are indeed proponents of such action. Even with the latter, I’m not sure if that should be argued as something damning all Muslims or reflecting “the majority” of Muslims.

            If it helps communicate my position, I’d be willing to ask why the Muslims around them didn’t stop them but I’d be hesitant to suggest the majority of Muslims condone such acts because I subjectively feel they aren’t distancing (condemning or apologizing) themselves from it vocally enough. There’s too much risk of goal-post moving in that.

            Does anyone know if the resident Muslim community in France has made any public displays of solidarity with the larger community in condemnation and mourning of the attack? I can imagine some doing that, but I can also imagine some wanting to lay low and avoid possible misdirected anger and grief.

          • Bob Loblaw

            Hey Kai, to answer your question about public displays of solidarity: yes, several imams (the video of the Drancy imam in tears on the afternoon of the attack in particular was widely shared and commented.)

            Also today is the day of prayer for all muslims and the great majority of French muslim federations were asked by their religious leader to condemn the attacks and pay their respect to the 12 victims.

    • Probotector

      Jews probably.

  • mr.wiener

    The prophets marriage to a 6 year old is recorded fact, acknowledged by muslim scolars.

    • biggj

      lol

  • biggj

    So im checking facebook today and this guy I went to school with who always post some conspiracy bullshit like lizard people run the government the earth is hollow and 9/11 and blah blah blah. The story here seem pretty cut and dry to me, Some pissed off muslims shot some people for making fun of them…nothing new there. Well apparently people think there is a big conspiracy going on. Just google “charlie hebdo conspiracy” ….it’s pretty crazy.lol

  • Small twon

    I think multiculturalism is failed idea, noble and ideal one but not practical. Read history book , here is example.
    1.Poland has many Jews and they live with natives peacefully for about hundreds years (Poles treated Jews much much better than west europeans) but in the end ..it was a disaster.

    2.Yugoslav Wars. Christian militia did ‘ethnic cleansing’. I read and saw pictures of what those called themselves “Christians” did to Muslims. it’s was..hell on earth.

    3.Spain was Muslim country but it was relatively peaceful country.
    Jews,Muslims,Christians co-existed but in the end , Christians revolted and did horrible things to their own country man .

    4.India got tons of religions and they manage live together but…again in the end ,they started killing each other.

    I think melting pot is the best option. so ,put gun to the people’s head and tell them “love your neighbor or we will put bullet on your head” and anybody preach hate ,whipped them like Singaporeans do and kick their ass out of country.

    • NeverMind

      India got tons on religions…started killing each other? Dude, are you OK or drunk? Not to mention ‘Spain was a Muslim country’…hahaha

      你喝醉了吗?

      • Small twon

        Read history book,dude. Do I have to do everything ? Ok I am giving you one hint. Google ‘ Moors history’and india history of religious conflict’

      • Dr Sun

        when was Spain a Muslim country, i assume you are talking about before it was either holy roman empire ,or after the Moore invasion .
        However I beg the question, just because a invader conquers you, does that make the conquered them ?
        If that was the case would not every one one in Iraq or Afghanistan be christian after 14 years of christian missionary, troops being there ?

        • NeverMind

          That is what Mr. Small Twon stated in his 3rd point, not me…

    • Dr Sun

      I think you need to go a lot further back, christian missionaries backed up by soldiers have been “spreading the word of God” for for many centuries, convert or die .

    • Yes!

      “I think melting pot is the best option. so ,put gun to the people’s head and tell them “love your neighbor or we will put bullet on your head” and anybody preach hate ,whipped them like Singaporeans do and kick their ass out of country.”

      That is without doubt the most effective, pragmatic and realistic method of dealing with this whole Muslim-extremist madness.

  • Kai

    It’s unfortunate you encountered such people. Way more Chinese I know and have seen are sympathetic, online and off. Even if they aren’t sympathetic, Chinese people tend to be more prejudiced against Muslims and Middle Easterners than they are of French and “white” people. Coupled with the fact that terrorism is a known issue in China as well and this is a case of terrorism, there’s even more Chinese predisposition to sympathize with the French.

    Don’t get me wrong, there ARE people who are making certain arguments and criticizing hypocrisies and double-standards, some in self-serving ways, but hopefully you’ll notice that the people you’ve encountered aren’t a fair representation of the rest.

  • Zappa Frank

    apology imply you are guilty or considered guilty, condemnation only that you consider what done wrong, the difference is huge. Condemnation has been expressed by people of any religion, even the pope, were they apologizing? Why is explicitly asked to muslims? To see and make it clear if they think what happen is something rightful according to their religion or not, because the people that did it did it for that religion, not for others.

  • Irvin

    Regardless of what islam teach or don’t teach, it is the reason these people kill, it is the excuse these people use, it is why millions of women have to cover their entire body in hot summer days.

    The “why” is just as important as the deed.

    Without islam, these things may or may not happen, but my problem isn’t that these things happens, my problem is the reason why it happens.

    It’s one thing to be killed because you’re stranded and your group have nothing to eat but you, it’s another thing to be killed because you draw some silly cartoon.

    • Arzugul

      Its the excuse they use, yes. But its not the reason.

  • Irvin

    After reading all the debates, I’ve come to one conclusion: The french needs chinese chengguan.

  • Mighty曹

    Killing in the name of God is just…. fucked up!

    • shit religion

      Christianity, nr. 1 mass murdering religion that has killed more people than any other religion in the name of god and not because of extremist.

      • Dr Sun

        cant argue with facts, Christianity, the church its priests and its soldiers have killed, murdered,raped, enslaved and tortured more people in the world than any other “cult”

  • han

    Religion makes people nuts

  • 萨夫 侯赛因

    Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.