Rural Chinese Young Girl & Family Working In Brick Factory

From Tiexue:

Summer Work for Zhang Qianqian

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Zhang Qianqian is from Guizhou, with her parents, living at the local brick factory, and probably also attends school at the local workers’ school.

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Upon asking her age, Zhang Qianqian laughed nervously and spoke of other things; I think she might be afraid of involving the “child labor” issue, so I did not keep asking her.

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This is Zhang Qianqian’s father. Although his life is hard, and his the burdens he shoulders are not light, there are still some things in life worth a laugh.

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Zhang Qianqian’s mother always either unintentionally or intentionally avoids our camera.

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From the sight of her drinking water, we can be certain, Zhang Qianqian’s mother is a good worker.

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china-poor-rural-girl-07-siblings

Zhang Qianqian has three siblings, the smallest are twins, and she is the oldest sister.

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It is not easy being the oldest sister.

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Not only does she have to work, she also must take care of her younger siblings, Zhang Qianqian could be said to be working two things at once.

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It can be seen that with regards to taking care of her younger siblings, Zhang Qianqian is very experienced, and very patient.

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When working, Zhang Qianqian is always paying attention to the circumstances of her siblings playing by the side.

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Life is not easy, young Zhang Qianqian knows this very well. So, she cannot fully enjoy the summer, and must work to reduce her parents’ burdens.

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Although she is young, she must be careful while working.

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Life’s road, is still very long, very long.

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In the future, will things change?

Comments from Mop:

囧样年华:

The children of poor people mature early.

金子般地心:

Hardship is wealth that spent on [developing] a kind of character, so one will not continue having hardships.

狗鸡鸡&:

Hardships is the most valuable wealth of life, jia you Little Qian Qian.

lll6674:

Everyone only knows how to discuss their hardships, but did not see their four children? With life so poverty-stricken, yet still having 4 children, it truly is the more you have the more poor, the more poor the more you have. Whenever this condition can be changed, I believe a big change will happen to their lives.

肜融肜融:

Kao, if you die of poverty, you deserve it for having that many children.

t9d9:

You stand around and talk! Truly without character! That MOP has this kind of people is truly embarrassing!
Do you know how important a son is to rural people!?
A son first is important for his labor;
Second, a son is a strength that guarantees not being bullied in the countryside;
Lastly, a son continues the family line.

There is still a very large very large difference between the countryside and cities!
Even though I too do not approve of people who have so many children, you do not have any reason to say these curses, and you also do not have the right to say!
The child is diligently changing her life, but you are here making noise.
Embarrassing!

战鱼在天:

Jia you!! Milk you will have, bread you will also have!
This is only the darkness before dawn~

jetty777:

Is this in our country?
No!
Impossible!
Our country’s children could not possibly be like this!
This is Africa! Our country is the most river crab country under the sky!

被夜打湿的男人:

Those people with money and and power who lead a life of debauchery and overspend at will, why can’t they help these children? One meal [of their's] can probably take care of one year’s school fees for them. The beauty life has given this child cannot be matched by polish on the surface.

我真是信了你的邪了:

The sadness of reality, I wish the best for this little girl.

Comments from NetEase:

w1g3:

The photography is very professional.

耿爺:

This is only one angle of the rural areas, and there is still plenty of this kind of thing in our country!

wt0019:

Such a cute little girl, so much more beautiful and pretty than those fei zhu liu.

秋水伊人:

Little girl, I really admire you..you are very pretty, and very capable…

However for the parents, if you had one less child, your life would definitely be much easier.

cfk888:

The root cause is poverty, not birth. If people could become rich by not having children, then wouldn’t singles all be rich? Think more about the causes of poverty?

moneyt2003:

Tell me her contact method, I will support her going to school.

daiqianblueq:

Looking at this makes me a little sad, because when I was small I worked at a brick company before also and I also was a little girl at the time. Now, we have passed that difficult period, I really value the blessings of my life right now. The future Little Zhang Qian will also be very remarkable when she enters society! I wish her success!

hhia:

Those talking about child labor have had their heads kicked by donkeys. Without child labor, what would those families with difficult circumstances do? The country has made so many regulations, do they have any use??? In reality, companies also do not want to use child labor, but to those who are hungry, is there anything more important than a job? Is there anyone who can help the hungry live on???

sjw1978:

Only the children of peasants/farms can endure hardships like this!

悄妮子:

A child of poor people. I too learned how to make meals starting when I was only a few years old, and chop firewood, etc. but fortunately, my life is better/good now.

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  • the great yellow master race

    look guys. she is a girl who lives in a big family. she is the oldest child. she is earning some money in a brink factory. its better than to work in a chemical recycling or on the tomato/rice fields. and she doesnt look like she is going to die from illness or hunger.

    • Melo

      look you dumb prick, children should not have to work such labour in any type of society in any time or place. a government that allows children to work, even if it’s helping the family, is not worthy of being in power. education and play is all a child’s life should be about.

      • J. Li

        It’s easy for a westerner who have never known shortages to make judgements like that, but that’s only because you’re a close minded idiot that does not know reality. China have never been paradise and never will be, it does not matter what government runs it. As long as the current government of China can keep the nation together, keep the nation out of wars, provide infrastructure then it has done its job. You expect the CCP to give social security to 1.4 billion Chinese? This child’s life is full of hardship but it is still more meaningful than the lives of fat-ass white children who’re spoiled and bratty. Fucking laowai, keep your mouth shut.

        • xyz123

          I’m Chinese, but i totally agree with the “westerner” stop fucking lowering your standards for china….
          its clear that our government is a piece of crap and does not take proper care of its citizens… don’t make up excuses…

      • ShenzhenGuy

        I disagree. I think they should an I think it’s normal. Children need hard work in order to understand the plight of their parents. Kids in the USA don’t know hard work and if they do they either complain or think they deserve a medal or sympathy. I wish kids were forced to work long hours in the USA that way would be more respectful of their parents/society

  • laowai

    I do not know, but I hope this girl is a nice girl with good morals. In the West, when ‘poor’ people break the law and show no respect for others they are often excused on the grounds that they have come from ‘tough’ backgrounds. I always point out that there are people all over the world, especially in China, who are much poorer and live much tougher lives yet still maintain good morals and respect others. As I said, I don’t know about this girl, but I know of other girls in China who work long hours doing hard jobs and are still polite and good natured. I hope things improve for these people.

    • http://www.sun-zoo.com/chinageeks/ ChinaGeeks

      I think that’s a pretty gross oversimplification of things. Let’s be fair here — it’s not like this girl has the option of buying a gun and joining the Crips, does she? Not to mention that there are issues of racial and cultural communities that aren’t the same as in China. Furthermore, I think the people you’re talking about are mostly the urban poor, who, again, have a lot more opportunity to commit easy crimes than this girl does. It’s one thing to be poor in rural China; you’re surrounded by it. It’s quite another to be poor in urban America, when all around you people parade the signs of their wealth as though it made them superior to you…

      This is not meant to excuse criminal behavior, but I find the notion that Chinese poor people are somehow more moral than other people to be fairly ridiculous.

      • laowai

        1. She does have the option of committing crime. There will be people richer than her nearby who she could steal from.

        2. How do racial issues cause people to commit crime? what racial issues? racial issues like the riots in urumqi? You haven’t explained yourself properly.

        3. Again, this girl will have the option to commit crime.

        4. poor in rural china? Are you trying to say that this girl doesn’t realise that there are people in her own country or the world who are vastly richer than her? Surely the same could be said for the urban poor in the West, aren’t they surrounded by poverty?

        5. I did not say that Chinese poor people are more moral.

        6. I also said:

        “I do not know, but I hope this girl is a nice girl with good morals.”

        and:

        “As I said, I don’t know about this girl, but I know of other girls in China who work long hours doing hard jobs and are still polite and good” natured.

        You obviously didn’t read my post properly.

        • laowai

          annex.

          1. She could also steal from people who are not rich.

          2. When someone came up to her and started taking photos of her with an SLR digital camera(judging by the quality of the photos), does this not constitute parading the signs of wealth as though it makes them superior to you?

    • Rick in China

      “In the West, when ‘poor’ people break the law and show no respect for others they are often excused”
      HUH? Excused by whom? AFAIK “poor” people make up the majority of prisoners, at least in North America, for different reasons than China. Perhaps excused is the wrong word. I think you mean there is often more _understanding_ as to why someone commits a crime based on their socioeconomic background, which is totally fair.

      I love the “I often point out that there are people all over the world, especially in China”. Are you kidding? Dude, who the fuck are you to preach about how immoral certain people “in the west” are and how “hard working” poor people all over the “rest” of the world are? You’re analyzing from outside a glass window, the fact is, there is a very slim chance you have any true understanding (nor do I) into the realities of poverty around the world. I know I have been through and witnessed extreme poverty (including the Nairobi slums, quite a bit different than the images depicted here.) and the insights granted from scattered experiences is absolutely nothing to begin preaching about.

      “Maintain morals and respect eachother” – Hahahahaaaaaaahahahahahaha.

      “but I know of other girls in China who work long hours doing hard jobs and are still polite and good natured”
      Are you implying that “poor people in the west” do not work long hours doing hard jobs? Or “poor people in the west” are not polite or good natured? Your blanket statements are ridiculous.

      In summary, my opinion of your words indicates you’re a condescending left-ish douchebag whose self image is that of a compassionate third-world do-gooder.

      • laowai

        1. Many are excused. Punishments are very lenient or non-existent. Many are actually rewarded, they receive special benefits or attention because they have come from so called ‘tough’ backgrounds.

        2. “I love the “I often point out that there are people all over the world, especially in China”. Are you kidding? Dude, who the fuck are you to preach about how immoral certain people “in the west” are and how “hard working” poor people all over the “rest” of the world are? You’re analyzing from outside a glass window, the fact is, there is a very slim chance you have any true understanding (nor do I) into the realities of poverty around the world. I know I have been through and witnessed extreme poverty (including the Nairobi slums, quite a bit different than the images depicted here.) and the insights granted from scattered experiences is absolutely nothing to begin preaching about.” – Apart from the fact this is written in very poor English and is very difficult to understand. What I think you are trying to say is that I have no experience of poverty? Am I right? How could I not understand the “realities” of poverty? What “realities” are there to understand which I have missed? Please enlighten me…

        3. You also say:

        “there is a very slim chance you have any true understanding (nor do I)”

        4. “I always point out that there are people all over the world, especially in China, who are much poorer and live much tougher lives yet still maintain good morals and respect others.” – this statement is entirely correct. I know some of them personally. Nb. I think what you have done is misinterpreted my statement to mean “all people all over the world” – I did not say that. I will excuse you because I think English is not your first language.

        5. “Are you implying that “poor people in the west” do not work long hours doing hard jobs? Or “poor people in the west” are not polite or good natured? Your blanket statements are ridiculous.” – No. When describing Westerners I used the word “often”, when describing Chinese I used the word “many”. Go and learn how to use the English language before arguing.

        6. you say:

        “there is a very slim chance you have any true understanding (nor do I)”

        and then you say:

        “I know I have been through and witnessed extreme poverty”

        Isn’t this a little contradictory?

        7. In summary, your someone who cannot understand the English language, who interprets people’s arguments to create straw-men and then waffles on the internet incomprehensibly.

        • laowai

          NB. The above experienced an editing error, I apologise. Please ignore comment *3* It was re-stated later on.

        • Rick in China

          Clueless.

          If you can’t read what I wrote, perhaps it is not my language skills which need questioning, laowai. Just because you teach English in China doesn’t mean you have superior language, nor does it mean phraseology you can’t understand is grammatically incorrect. You’ve only shown me that this thread needs no more posts written by my hand. Good luck with yourself, and please continue to prove the “condescending douche” remark is spot on.

          • laowai

            1. You tendency to interpret things wildly, without any evidence, to suit your own viewpoint, is further shown by your statement: “Just because you teach English in China” – I do not teach English in China.

            2. I take the fact that you haven’t actually argued with me here as a sign that you have nothing left to say but don’t want to admit your wrong.

            3. Calling someone a “condescending douche” is not an argument, it is an insult and very childish.

      • Jam

        I agree with you rick, this guy is an idiot

    • laowai

      I still hope things improve for these people.

      • 4chuan

        In summary, I still hope things improve for these people.

    • gabriel

      As a matter of fact I can see where you’re coming from. I live in China, but I used to live in England. In England you get a lot of violence and anti-social behaviour from people of low-class background, and it is often excused because of their relative poverty and lack of opportunity. However, in China there are masses of people with much less opportunities and wealth than them, who nonetheless go on being basically polite and unconfrontational, and don’t commit crimes.

  • lostinsz

    Whats this nice girl with good morals stuff. This is economic/financial necessity talking. Though I totally agree with your point about ‘tough backgounds’ as an excuse in the west.

  • Yin

    Hmm, aren’t rural families limited to two children? I guess enforcement isn’t as strict in certain areas.

    Anyways, people who work hard to better themselves have my respect. Hope it all pays off.

  • zor

    They look healthy and relatively happy. I can’t say the same for people I see in China’s cities.

    This is not exactly what people mean when they campaign against ‘child labor.’ Rather, this is a good approximation of the working environment at many well-known Christian communities in the US: Amish, Truelight, etc.

    Move along. Nothing to see here.

    • JT

      Truelight? what the heck is that

  • Gareth

    Hats off to the photographer

  • PUSAN PLAYA

    Boring, do another story about a naked Chinese girl getting beaten up.

  • Tommy

    My heart goes out to her but to be honest she looks much healthier than some of the fat, baiju filled, pants up around their tits, big bunch of keys hanging from the belt, Chinese men I have seen.
    There’s nothing wrong with labor, someone has to do it. Its the wages and protection of these people I am concerned about.

  • Willy Horton

    The parents are poor, why do they have so many children?

    • Michael

      Hint: what sex are the two youngest twins?

      Keep having kids until you get a male. Also, as you can see in the photo essay, for the very poor, children can be less of a financial burden because at a young age they start to pull in some money for the family and take care of younger siblings. And the parents certainly aren’t thinking about the cost of after-school tutors, much less college tuition for the kids–whereas middle class parents would. Developing countries (more poorer families) have higher birthrates typically.

      • Rick in China

        RE: developing countries & higher birthrates:

        Pop out a few and one is bound to be able to bring your ignorant ass out of poverty, right?

        • V

          That’s an awfully pessimistic perspective on life…

          • Rick in China

            For those living in extreme poverty I don’t imagine they have a very positive perspective on life, V. Not to mention their lack of sexual education and the animalistic nature of sex, combined with ‘work needing to get done’ and a higher deathrate of kids..why do you think many women in various countries in Africa pop out an average of 10 kids? 5 or 6 will die, and they need a couple to work in order for their whole ‘family unit’ to survive. Pessimistic? Get realistic, that’s their reality, and it’s a fucking tragedy..

          • JCH

            Not to mention the price of Condoms. My girlfriend and I both get wages right on the average GDP line for the city we are in. We went through a nasty period of not having any money, condoms were not affordable. Birth control is a luxury. Family planning is a luxury as well. Abortion and taking care of possible heath risks is a luxury.

  • Peteryang

    not to by cynical but this stuff won’t make a shit different, it’s not like we don’t already know places like this one and there are perhaps hundreds of thousands similar ones across the country run by local officials and cronies and the government doesn’t care plain and simple.

    and she aint gon get a better pay for posing like this nor will millions of slave labors get anything in the foreseeable future, simple as that. and I saw worse ones, those work at coal mines, paid 10 yuan a day, inhale contaminated air all the time that they probly won’t live past 40.

  • THE KID

    REALLY GOOD POST !!!

    Great photo’s …you caught the girls emotions on point.

    FYI: They wouldnt’ want us to feel sorry for them !!, but to give them respect for working so hard… and to treat them like everyone else….. Those smiles are amazing, shows that hard work and family time together can bring happiness from the inside, fuck materialistic Shanghainese pretending not to be chinese !!!!

  • Michael

    i’d rather die poor than bring a child into the world which i would know i can’t support. but if i can get by a little bit each day & smile just once through that day and appreciate i have kids. then its worth it.

  • http://laowaiink.blogspot.com Mark

    I’m not sure what point the photojournalist was trying to make. If they were wanting to capture the drudgery of rural China labor, they failed. If they were wanting to show a family persevering in the face of adversity, imo they don’t look too strained. The vibe I get is “here is a happy Chinese family…theytoilinabrickfactory BUT! they’re a happy Chinese family.” And I know it sounds callous but this is rather common in China. I know foreigners visiting uber-modern Shanghai will be shocked but most of China is still 2nd and 3rd world. And China’s 3rd world is still very mild compared to most 3rd world countries. That’s not to demean this family’s suffering, but as far as using this family as a face of China’s toil, I don’t think it has any punch.

  • Shanghairocks

    Just another face of China …

  • Ming

    Great article.

    Great photography.

    But as I sat here and read this, I was wondering what would happen if this is vice versa. What if Chinese people were reading on “america smack” on things like trailer park, or ghettos, or projects, or wide spread of guns and drugs in the state. I wonder if their opinion will be as harsh as some of the comments here on Chinasmack criticizing China.

    • Rick in China

      Are you implying Americans are not critical of their country?
      Are you fucking high?

      • madmax

        No, he´s implying that Chinese wouldn´t be so harsh on Americans, if they read stories like this about America. So Ming just seems to complain about this unethical behavior of you rude rude Americans here. ^^ (Actually I could pretty well picture the reactions of some fenqing …).
        The question remains: Ming, are you fucking high?

        • milkfiddle

          I don’t think he is high, Americans are extremely arrogant and believe they are born in the land of freedom and can show the rest of the world how to live, without acknowledging their own massive social problems. China IS developing so it is not perfect yet but it is progressing in the right direction.

          • Rick in China

            You’re right.

            They never acknowledge their own problems, or criticize their government.

            YOU are also fucking high. Watch the news….seen any townhall meetings lately?

          • Fcuk Da Lu Ren

            Rick,

            Dont even waste your time arguing with these retards, look at the crap that they wrote below. The can talk all they want about America bashing this and that but we are the first ones to praise China for a great opening ceremony and most of our criticisms of China are for the things that happen against Chinese people and wanting them to have a better life or freedom.

            However as the world opens up and sees how China views the world we begin to finally complain about the injustice, the robbery, and outright destruction of the planet that China is responsible for.

            Let them rant and high five each other and “ding” comments. Pretty soon it will all come crashing down and Americas “trailer parks” (which are far better than any Chinese village or even some parts of downtown shanghai) will seem like heaven to the Chi mates

      • Ming

        No, I am not high. I am implying that american are not self conscious and arrogant. They like to over exaggerate and critical of foreign countries, meanwhile downplay their own problems. If what I said were to take place, I think:

        1) Many Chinese will be shock to see image of trailer parks, or ghettos.

        2) Chinese critics would be more mild on america than american critics on China.

        Furthermore, I have notice that american like to believe that they are the best at everything. To maintain this belief, they love to bash at other countries. In the cold war, the target was the Russian. During the 80s, it was the japanese. Now is the Chinese. I am willing to bet that sooner or later, american will start bashing the Indian too.

        • Den

          Could not say this better.

        • chabuduoxiansheng

          “I have notice that american like to believe that they are the best at everything”

          That’s right, playa!

  • Rocky III

    Child labor is better then the options.

  • Richard

    How cruel and arbitrary fate is.

    To me, this young girl exhibits all the positive qualities that make Chinese women unique – strength, determination, courage, sense of humor, responsibility, etc. Unfortunately, she is born in poverty.

    It would make a wonderful experiment if her fate changed and allowed her to get and education. What would be her fate then? The reality is that there are hundreds of millions of girls like her in China. What a waste!

    This young girl’s fate is the same as China. What will happen to her? If China does not change her condition, China will suffer her fate.

    • Solomon

      Yea right!

      There is nothing wrong with summer job learning skills. Even western kids do this. She could work in a karaokebar and make 100 RMB a night having guys touch her in apropriate places. 30 nights like that and she can continue one more year in a good school.

      Im sure there is nohing wrong with this girl. She makes bricks out of mud and China needs to be rebuilt so that is probably the best job for the future.

      I do not pity this girl.

  • 王老吉

    THIS IS CHINA! Welcome to a beautiful country that dont give a shit for its people, as soon they bring money and progress!

  • ambra

    In all the world, even in Europe and USA there are underage workers, is not a developing countries problem.
    Feeling pity for her.

    • shin

      No there are not underage workers in the same capacity as in developing countries. A simple paper route is not the same as working in a brick factory or in a clothing sweatshop and there are laws enforced to prevent this. It is a shame for these children and it really exposes China A vs. China B.

  • milkfiddle

    Kids like this will rule China one daay they have ambition and pure motivation to improve their lives’, the privilidged kids will leave their cars, computer games and gambling one day and ask, “what happened to Daddy’s money?”.

  • andrewb

    China always lived on the back of the peasant. Always did. Some things never change.

    • lee

      peasant should be help…

  • Canuck in China

    All to common in China.

    But seriously, she should be snatched-up for the 2012 Olympics. Check out the guns!

  • lee

    She’S working bcoz of poverty,she’s definately a tough girl…i fully support her… to those rich n stingy ppl …the hell is at your doorstep…

  • Den

    Very special girl. But four kids, to be born in such poverty. One, at the very most maybe two, one could understand and “forgive”. But four…those parents are selfish and unthinking bastards in my eyes.

  • krdr

    Is paying for bride (marriage portion) custom in China? In that case, as hard working and nice looking girl, she’ll bring lot of money to her parents. In many countries, children is main labor in rural areas.

    Anyway, is always sad to see kids working instead to play or learn. I know it is necessity in less developed countries (and some developed).

    I wonder how many years this girl have. Her expression is very mature.

    This girl story looks like taken from some school magazines we were obligated to read 20 years ago (in socialistic Yugoslavia).

  • Lindel

    she appears to have more character than the bloggers demonstrating their crass lack of compassion

  • Den

    She has really beautiful eyes. Not because of genetics but because of life experience and built-in character. So much wisdom and care obvious in such a tiny young thing. Not only working harder than most adults but also being almost like a mother to her siblings. Contrast this 1-in-a-million angel with the vast amount of pure human trash – selfishness beyond measure, hurting and killing defenseless animals, children – that China specializes in creating, and really she is a miracle.

  • ic

    Dysgenic process at work.

  • too yellow

    reminds me of this:

  • cmfeirs

    Any Chinese or foreigner who has been to China who reads this post and does not critically rant about the corruption and greed of the Chinese government and the ignorance of the Chinese people for their blind support of said government, should be called out. The great “Peasant Revolt” that led to the rebith of China??? Are you insane? Chairman Mao who defeated those terible leaders who took advantage of the rural poor and replaced them with a government (Thugocracy) that promised all people would be equal??? Are you stupid? I am sick of seeing stories like this and being told that China is only on the first tier of socialism, but it is going in the right direction. Your government does not care and their fundamental social policy is founded on the principle that with 1.4 billion people, most are expendable. Your government spent at least 40 billion US$ on an Olympics that no one cared about except your government (and you because you government told you to). Your country is the wealthiest country in the worl yet it claims it cannot institute basic social welfare programs to eliminate tragedies such as this. So, before anyone blames anyone else, blame your government – and tell them to stop wasting money on space walks that other people did 30 years ago, international sporting venues that now sit vacant, a revamped navy not need by a country with an isolationist philosophy, and everything else it spends money on in the name of national prestige. Because, frankly, when this girl’s fate is the same fate of more than half your people (and that is a true figure) your country will never have any prestige internationally.

    • Ming

      Kinda like how 50 million american does not have basic health care? Or how 90% of american prisoners are black or latino? Or how american wasting 700 billion for their bankers buddies. Or how american government waste 1 trillion each year for the military and 2 wars in the middle east?

      Looks like american government doesnt care for american either.

      No offense, but you dont know too much about Chinese society do you?

      • Wang Laoshi (WESTCOASTGZ)

        No offense to you Ming but kinda like how Chinese government leader (Mao Zedong) killed more than hitler and the others all combined, kinda like how your government has a nice front but behind the masks everyone’s so corrupt, or how the chinese government talks about harmonious society when in reality they don’t mind executing any criminals for small time crime, or how you claim that taiwan is yours but its not? or how uneducated your people are? or how your healthcare plan ain’t any better than the one in the US?
        or how you guys like to point at people so easily? or how your government blocks website’s to hide the truth such as the tian an men massacre? or how you talk trash about America when the Americans saved Chinese asses from the Japanese? or how you just can’t get over the fact that Americans have a better living condition than the Chinese?
        Don’t get me wrong though, every nation has its ups and downs. Just don’t be jealous ’cause America is number 1.

        • Ming

          No offence. But as a Chinese, I agree with everything your said about CCP vs Chinese people. Educated Chinese know our own problems. We dont sugar coat it with national pride.

          Too bad I cant say the same for you american. Who go all the way to criticizes Chinese internal affairs, meanwhile your own government is taking advantage of your population.

          PS: We know China is a developing nation. We know we have problems to fixed. Sucks for you that america is a developed nation, and number 1 super power, and yet most american dont talk about their own internal problems.

          • http://cnreviews.com Kai

            Ming,

            yet most american dont talk about their own internal problems.

            This is not true. Americans talk about their internal problems all the time, it’s just that many of them don’t talk about them when they’re criticizing China and the Chinese. I agree that it appears that more Chinese tend to remind themselves of their own shortcomings when discussing problems in/with America (especially if we go by the translated comments represented on chinaSMACK), but it is NOT true that Americans do not discuss their own internal problems.

            It is, also, natural for them to be discussing China’s problems on a website about China instead of America’s problems. China is, usually, the subject of the posts and discussions here. However, it is also natural to defensively invoke problems in/with America in response to some of the more arrogant and obnoxious criticisms Americans feel entitled to make here, as if no one should dare feel offended by some of their more extreme and offensive behavior.

      • Den

        I think both of you are correct. Neither government gives a shit about its citizens. Thus both countries are shitholes, despite their current hype. The difference being, americans have retarded patriotic blinders on, whereas Chinese and their government are a tiny bit more honest and aware of it.

      • Chinasdabest!!! (WESTCOASTGZ)

        Ming, get your facts straight please. 90% of American prisoners are not black and latino. No offense to you for justifying your statement but blacks and latinos only compose 57% of prison population in America. 20% Asians and yes believe it or not, 23% are composed of White mostly the Aryan Brotherhood gang. And they are not WASTING 700biilion. That stimulus package was a small boost for the economy. Loans, personal finances etc… benefited from that money.
        The war on the middle east is a vague topic that can’t be explained in a small sentence like wasting 1 trillion for 2 wars.
        Get your facts straight.
        Your a disgrace to us Chinese.

        • jinsic

          You’re blindly following the idealism behind the stimulus package. Go read more on it.

        • Ming

          Being manipulated by Fox news and CNN, you are a disgrace to human kind.

          Even if its 57% being black and latino, that is still a major problem.

          700 billion gone to the banks for bad debts. They dont help regular folks.

          American military is over budget and the 2 wars are unnecessary. Thank the american military industrial complex for the war.

          Lastly, you arent Chinese. You are too stupid to be even asian.

          • http://cnreviews.com Kai

            Ming, don’t be an ass. You’re becoming just as racist and intellectually immature as the people you’re arguing against. Stick to the points that matter.

    • poor thing

      and I am a bit sick of people bitching about this all the time. We read it the first 50 times. Do you feel good about yourself typing this out?

  • Joe #2

    My own job seems easy now. I wish her all the best.

  • cmfeirs

    Ming it was a sad attempt at a response to my post. You simply tried to make points about how the American government doesn’t care about it’s people either, so the Chinese shouldn’t complain about its own government. While it is generally true that most governments don’t care about the individual, they are basically macroengineers who forget that percentage actually equate to real individual human beings, but there is a one startling difference between the plight of the poor in America and the poor in China – choice. The majority of the poor in America choose to be poor, either because they choose to follow the pop culture image of gang lifestyle or because they choose drugs and alcohol over personal responsibility. Anyone, and I mean anyone, in America CAN go to college if they choose. They cannot however spend 4 years of their life skipping class and smoking crack eliminating most of the functioning brain cells they were born with – they cannot choose to engage in unprotected sex thus forcing them into the workforce at an early age – they cannot dream of being the next hoops star and forget they actually have to study and take the SAT, etc., etc. The problem in China is your poor are convinced they are working and sacrificing for the greatness of the nation and someday their situation will improve. What your government does not want you to know is that if they do improve basic necessities for your citizens, they would collapse because without slave wages and unenforced labor laws the manufacturing sector of the Chinese economy dies and thus your entire economy dies! And dont try to blast the health care system in the United States, only 43 million are uninsured, 15 million of which are not US citizens. Also, we never refuse treatment to anyone brought to the hospital for an emergency (and that includes tourists, citizens, and illegal immigrants. Try to paint over the compassion or lack thereof of your own system by drawing more erroneous comparisons.

    • Ming

      I will bash your country as much as I liked. It is my freedom of expression.

      Almost everything you said about CHina is true. So? China is a developing nation. We have the right to take our time to develop. As long as the living standard for the mass improve, Chinese people view it as progress.

      What about you? America, number 1 country in the world, and you guys cant even provide free health care for the mass. 50 million uninsured american. How sad for the number 1 superpower.

      And the majority who choose to be poor, really? And you dont see that as a problem? A culture that promote sex, drugs, gangs, and guns? You think it is cool to be the number 1 super power and still have 25% of the world prisoners? How sad is your super power?

      I am not bashing you because I hate america. I am bashing you because you american are so up your own ass that you only criticizes foreign countries. And all the meanwhile your own is in deep shit. You think you have a moral high ground, you dont. Fixed your own country before lecturing others. You american sound like a stupid kid trying to teach a class full of undergrads.

    • blah

      that is not true to say americans who are poor choose to be poor… as if anyone anywhere in the world chooses to be poor!!

      c’mon be real… for such a wealthy country america is pretty bad at protecting the most needy in its society – both in terms of providing necessities right now and in terms of facilitating social/class mobility… hopefully with the change in government to a more liberal one, things will improve…

      i think the key thing is that notwithstanding how imperfect the electoral system is, americans have the right to vote out their government every 4 years if they dont like the government whereas the chinese dont. the chinese are simply stuck with the same lousy government year after year…

      being chinese myself, i can see where the nationalistic moods come from whereby my fellow comerades react rather emotionally to any “foreign” criticism of china. However, for all the chinse out there, its not all that constructive to bash the american system because thats not going to solve these outright child labour abuse problems at home. and trust me, this problem is far more visible in china.. in fact, you dont see the kinda of manual labour without protective clothing done anywhere in developed countries really…

      Also, for all the americans out there trying to justify the horrible things going on in their country by drawing comparisons to the even more horrible things happening in china, that is pathetic! You should be comparing your country’s stats with those of sweden, canada etc…

  • occeo

    Makes me feel guilty. When I was her age I was attending school full time and enjoying soccer with friends. To pay a tribute to her I would try not to whine over things I stress about on daily basis.

  • http://cnreviews.com Kai

    cmfeirs,

    Ming it was a sad attempt at a response to my post. You simply tried to make points about how the American government doesn’t care about it’s people either, so the Chinese shouldn’t complain about its own government.

    No, the sad attempt here is you trying to frame Ming as suggesting that “Chinese shouldn’t complain about its own government.” Where did he say anything like that?

    You pissed out a laundry list of criticisms of China and the Chinese. Is it really surprising for someone else to remind you that other countries aren’t perfect either? To me, it’s a natural reaction to your natural reaction. You see something you don’t like and you criticize it. Someone hears your criticisms and doesn’t like it, probably feels you’re riding a high horse, and tries to bring you down a notch. We see people doing this all the time, in every country, at every age. What did you expect? That every time you criticize others that they hang their head and nod with you, apologizing for the consternation their failures and mistakes has caused you?

    You’re on the attack, cmfeirs, and you didn’t just criticize one thing, you dragged in, as I said, a laundry list of grievances. You also morally blackmailed everyone else to join you in dogpiling the Chinese, saying that anyone who doesn’t should be “called out.” In other words, you’re saying, “hey, you deserve to be criticized and shamed, and c’mon, everyone, you should all be joining me in shaming this guy.”

    That’s poor form.

    When you publicly call attention to another person’s flaws, you’re asking for them to call attention to your’s. Did you really expect otherwise?

    Your criticisms of China and the Chinese are understandable and mostly legitimate. So are Ming’s criticisms of you and America. Neither of you are stupid enough to think the faults of one excuse the faults of the other. You recited your laundry list of criticisms to humble the pride you think the Chinese have of their own country. Ming recited a laundry list of America’s faults to humble the arrogance he thinks you’re exhibiting.

    Now, I don’t think Americans, kids vs. undergrads or not, are forbidden to comment or criticize other countries. Everyone has the freedom to do so towards any country they want. The point is not to have any unrealistic and unreasonable expectations of doing so, such as expecting others to categorically agree with you or not push back.

    there is a one startling difference between the plight of the poor in America and the poor in China – choice. The majority of the poor in America choose to be poor,

    LoL, you’re kidding, right? Okay okay, I actually understand what you’re trying to say and while I don’t know if you’re Republican (not that there’s anything inherently wrong with it), I definitely hear that refrain often from Republicans. It’s also widely used by those who want to parade their success as the fruit of their own choices and efforts instead of acknowledging that they were, on the whole, quite lucky with a bunch of things. Even Warren Buffet acknowledges the huge role sheer luck (of birth, of upbringing, etc.) had in helping him become what he has. Those who insist that one’s current and GOOD situation is a sum of one’s own past and GOOD choices and only GOOD choices also tend to invoke the inverse that those who are in shitty situations are responsible because of their own shitty past choices.

    But sometimes bad things happen to good people. Sometimes not all people are created equal. Sometimes life just sucks and you can’t CHOOSE your way out of it.

    The problem in China is your poor are convinced they are working and sacrificing for the greatness of the nation and someday their situation will improve.

    You don’t hang around with poor people in China very much, do you, cmfeirs? The vast majority of poor in China DO hope that their situation will improve, just as the poor immigrant masses to America dreamed and often realized the same. For the most part, the poor in China HAVE seen their situations improve (they’re just not too happy with how their situation has improved relative to others, such as city slickers or evil government cronies).

    But do they see their situation as voluntary and conscious sacrifice for the nation? Some do, but far from most of them. You’ve been drinking from the government propaganda bullshit cooler too much. After your two years in China, I would’ve imagined you’ve learned that there is a large disconnect between what the government tries to get the people to think, and what the people actually think. I suspect it is because you employ circular reasoning to assume that all the Chinese people really are brainwashed automatons. Sorry, that’s just not true, just as the hordes turn out to laugh at the CCTV building burning brightly.

    What your government does not want you to know is that if they do improve basic necessities for your citizens, they would collapse because without slave wages and unenforced labor laws the manufacturing sector of the Chinese economy dies and thus your entire economy dies!

    You’re not too well-versed in global economics, are you? Given that America has been party to the development and continuation of China’s manufacturing sector and general economic system, let me ask you: How would America fare if China’s “entire economy dies”?

    And dont try to blast the health care system in the United States, only 43 million are uninsured, 15 million of which are not US citizens. Also, we never refuse treatment to anyone brought to the hospital for an emergency (and that includes tourists, citizens, and illegal immigrants.

    Why not blast the American health care system? Americans do it all the time. Are only AMERICANS allowed to criticize it?

    And if treatment is never refused to anyone brought in for an emergency, why did you feel it was necessary to specify that 15 million of 43 million are not US citizens?

    Furthermore, surely, there must be countries in this world that simultaneously provide health insurance to everyone AND non-citizens, right?

    drawing more erroneous comparisons.

    I think the person who started drawing erroneous comparisons was you, cmfeirs. At the end of the day, we go back to what I stated in the beginning. You want to criticize the Chinese, fine. Don’t get your panties in a twist when they criticize you back. Both countries have their own very real problems. You want to have a productive conversation? Exercise some tact and learn to constructively discuss problems and solutions instead of just passing judgment, especially ones with racial overtones. I’ll tell you this won’t always work, but at least you’ll be a better role model to the Chinese you denigrate so much. Ideally, that role model is someone who exhibits the maturity and humility to demonstrate that he genuinely cares about helping the Chinese instead of just condemning them of inferiority. Even when it doesn’t work, you still just might do some good by being that role model, so that the more open-minded, less-defensive Chinese can respect you, and so that your own countrymen can respect you also for showing how mature, humble, and genuine an American can be.

    • Ming

      You are right, I make that “laundry list” to counter american right wing extremists such as cmfeirs.

      But dont compare me to him. I gladly admit the problems in China today. I also understand that China is still a developing country. I also knew the amount of tasks and time it would likely take to fix all these problems.

      Cmfeirs on the other hand, donesnt even want to admit american’s own problem. He took pride in bashing other countries and assuing all Chinese as brain wash. Against these sort of arrogant bastards, there is no need for mercy. The sad things, is that I didnt even make up that laundry list. They are all facts. And yet, american have the guts to lecture others when their own systems are in rapid decline.

      • http://cnreviews.com Kai

        Ming, it is not that cmfeirs doesn’t admit America’s own problems, it’s that he doesn’t want to admit them or talk about in front of you. He wants to limit this discussion with you to China and China’s problems, to the Chinese and the problem with Chinese people.

        Therefore, he understandably feels that you talking about America’s problems is trying to shift attention away from China when HE wants attention to be on China ONLY.

        I think this is natural, but it isn’t defensible. When he does this, it shows that he cares more about attacking China and the Chinese than attacking the underlying problems of humanity that cause these issues and similar issues in any country around the world. It is easier for him to blame these problems of the Chinese being Chinese, instead of actually trying to fairly discuss and constructively figure out a solution towards common human problems.

        After all, is a Wall St. riddled with conflicts of interest that much different from China’s government riddled with conflicts of interest? The names of the players are different, but the fundamental problem is the same: greed, self-interest, short-term mindsets, etc.

        But cmfeirs is not here on chinaSMACK to discuss these problems as problems, he is here to discuss these problems as “Chinese” problems. There’s a subtle difference, because inherent in doing that is the motivation to argue that one race or nation is better or worse than another. This compulsive need to establish racial or national superiority/inferiority is intellectual immaturity at its finest, and evidence of insecurity. Fenqing do this too, which is why I’ve long said that people who exhibit attitudes like cmfeirs are really no better than hyper-nationalistic Chinese fenqing.

        For the record, I don’t think all Americans criticize China and the Chinese out of some arrogant, hypocritical, or self-righteous interest in lecturing others. It depends on how they commuicate their concerns and criticisms. I know Chinese people lecture others all the time too. This isn’t about mercy, it’s about making the strongest argument or defense you can, about being in the best, most logical, most respectable position in a debate/discussion.

        Furthermore, I don’t think America’s systems are in rapid decline. I think America has a lot of good fundamentals and they’re receiving a shock to their system that comes due every so often in history. I don’t cheer the decline of America, and most educated Chinese I know see America’s decline as a frightening thing. American systems and society has plenty of problems, as befitting any human society, especially large dominant ones, in the world. I want them to come out of it better than they were before, just as I want the Chinese to come out of the past century better than they were before. If nothing else, the decline of America isn’t really a good thing for China itself, given that China also voluntarily entered into the semi-symbiotic geo-economic relationship that both countries now depend on.

        • 4chuan

          do you write these things at work? if I was your boss, you’d be fired by now.

      • heilong79

        Ming you not really Chinese are you, your just pretending to Bash America cause your a bored internet junkie and just want to temp American Patriotic anger. Patriotism is a form of Brainwashing that breeds zealots, there should be a ban on the internet for Patriotism, but then what would the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans and Americans bitch about then.

  • Ryan Lion

    Zhang Qianqian is very smart and a hard worker.
    Some young Chinese people today should learn from her. Sitting at home on the computer playing kai xin while your parents work?
    As you can see in the picure she is happy for now.

  • Den

    My God, if anyone could possibly be more long-winded and annoying than this Kai idiot. Every post is like a book! I have only been on the site a short time but already I can’t stand seeing that name in the comments.

  • cmfeirs

    I am glad others have noticed Kai obfuscating from his ivory tower once again. Kai you really need to be more realistic. I don’t think you look at the root cause of the anger from most of the foreigners who post on this site. In fact, if you did, you would not see it as anger and racism rather hostility and frustration. I will give you an analogy so that you can better understand – It is like pulling your best friend aside after you caught his skank as gf with another guy. he wants to forgive her and work it our or maybe he responds with a contradictory argument because he doesn’t believe you. You finally must stick your finger in his face and say “Wake up, you moron”. It is the same way people were upset about nations disrupting the torch relay. Everyone knew it was not about celebrating the progress of the Chinese people rather its government. It was a show – for the party and by the party. But, when the Chinese could not see that other nations and other people were trying to show solidarity in their struggle to change their lives (which will never happen if they do not change their government), the foreigners who risked ridicule and arrest felt betrayed. Kai, you can do your best to gloss over the cold hard fact that if things don’t change in China soon, it will result in either a bloody revolution or a bloody third world war. The government has created an angry, ignorant, and dangerously nationalistic citizenry that will either kill millions of its own or millions of others soon. Try discussing Taiwan or Japan or the US with a group of ordinary Chinese and you can feel the hatred and anger. If you really want to do something to help China and the Chinese people, stop your long winded bullshit posts and speak directly about the problems China needs to address and possible sollutions to those problems. And I do discuss the problems that America faces, you can see my posts at Huffingtonpost.com – but Kai, this is Chinasmack or were you not able to read the print from where you’re sitting in your ivory tower, so much more mentally and morally superior than the rest of us?

    • Mike Fish

      I like Kai, he’s a brilliant guy and a logical, organized writer. However, cmfeirs, your comment is pretty damn close to bullseye.

      • Johnny Cage

        Thumbs down.
        Kai’s a fucking homo.

        • http://cnreviews.com Kai

          I promise to write even longer comments for people just like you. Grow up.

    • Ming

      Then why arent you ashamed of your own government? Who the hell are you to help Chinese people? Did we asked for your help? Who the hell are you to think we even need your help? Have it not occurred to you that most Chinese choose this administration due to the timing? Who the hell do you think you are to lecture Chinese what is right and what is wrong?

      You guys just killed 1 million Iraqi for the past 8 years. I would worry about your own human right record before lecturing others.

      PS: Your own government is also using you to bail out the bankers, pay the military industrial complex, and satisfied Israeli interest. I guess both Chinese and American are brainwashed hu?

      • Mike Fish

        The US has certainly in the past used criticism and ridicule recieved from other countries to improve itself. Other countries banned slavery before the United States did. Abolishinists from the UK, France, and Scandinaia bashed the US’s slave policy, went to the US to lecture, funded abolishinist groups, and certainly had an impact on ending slavery. There were Americans at that time who whined about the foreign interference, with the same line so many people have now when their country gets critiqued, “don’t criticize me, you aren’t perfect”.

        Yet, as often happens, those whining morons, who couldn’t take(or leave) a little criticism, constructive or not, from foreign strangers, ended up on the wrong side of history. The same thing happened in the United States with women’s sufferage, the civil rights movement, child labor, education reform, protecting the environment, organized labor, political corruption, and the list goes on and on. Criticism of the US by foreigners and actual involvment by the foreigners in the process helped make America better. The US has been the recipient of constant criticism, valid or not, since its founding. Some of that criticism was valid and came from places with better systems and more advanced and more enlightened ways of doing things. Other criticism was utter crap. However, if Americans had all just ignored that foreign criticism, covered their eyes and plugged their ears, and droned the mantra “I don’t listen to foreigners because they have problems too” then the US would definately not be the place it is. America has this history of being open to what foreigners think, since Americans(other than the Native ones) were all foreign, and want to criticize(help) others in return.

        So, Americans figure if they can take all that criticism and make the US better, why not dish some of it out? America has been through the problems that many countries now are dealing with and sometimes used the foreign criticism to right things. Why can’t it work the other way, right? Granted many Americans are ignorant self-righteous asshole hypocrites who personally have no right to critcize a whole country of people when they themeslves are so far from perfect. However, just because one idiot can point out that another idiot is an idiot, doesn’t mean he’s wrong, does it?

        Criticism is more likely to be considered if it’s constructive, right? Humility is good too. People should remember when criticizing another country that they themselves have had little if any role in making their country what it is. They are just lucky to have been born in a place with a constitution, reliable institutions, a history of personal freedoms. What has that giver of criticism done to make their country that way? Did they write those laws? Fight for those rights? Serve in their government? Maybe, but likely not.

        Criticism shouldn’t be ignored just because the giver of it is from an imperfect place. Their critique should be considered and if it’s not valid, ignore it. If they’re a rude pest, tell them to shut up or F-off. But covering one’s eyes and plugging one’s ears while dancing around to the tune of “I don’t listen to all of you imperfect foreigners” misses the historical fact that the game is all about discourse. Every country gives and takes.

        Should Sun Yatsen not have listened to America because it had a civil war? Or did he listen to American ideals/ideas precisely because they had had a civil war?

        • http://cnreviews.com Kai

          Good post, Mike Fish. Effective, meaningful, constructive discourse requires both parties willing to talk with, not to, each other.

          • Mike Fish

            Hey, that can’t be directed at me… I’m definately talking with… and laughing with.

        • Ming

          I disagree. Sun yat sen actively seek out western political system in preparation for his own revolution.

          Chinese people such as, scientists, and engineers actively seek out western knowledge to better Chinese own industry and R and D.

          Chinese people even actively seek out western political system and view it as a model of what they think is appropriate and what is not. My point is, Chinese people do not take lecture. If we dame something is effective and should be copy, we do so at our own pace.

          You talk about abolish of slavery, and woman suffrage. These things american actually want and agree.

          This is very different from what right wing extremists are saying: “remove the CCP and take down the communist.” Most chinese people do not see this as a fitting time for regime change. Chinese people see economic development as something that is worth compensating for with human rights. This is the Chinese people decision. This is why western critics on these sort of issue are usually one sided and bias. Because westerners are too arrogant to factor in economic development and national pride. Combine with the fact that american them self have so many blood on their hands, you guys dont have much credibility when you people talk about human right. Therefore, western criticism these days are mostly bias, and should be avoided or counter. There is no need listening bias critics from american with superior and arrogant complex.

          • Mike Fish

            Ming… congrats, you won, I’m now going to put a bullet through my head because your arguments are not logical or better, but because they are so inane…

            bang!

        • Teacher in China

          Well done! “However, just because one idiot can point out that another idiot is an idiot, doesn’t mean he’s wrong, does it?” might be my favourite line of the year.

      • VeerLeft

        You guys just killed 1 million Iraqi for the past 8 years. I would worry about your own human right record before lecturing others.

        Seriously Ming. That is war. Get a grip.

    • http://cnreviews.com Kai

      cmfeirs,

      I am glad others have noticed Kai obfuscating from his ivory tower once again.

      You’re echoing our old friend Jeremiah: allegations of obfuscation and implications that you must somehow be right because there are people who agree with you. One of the first things you learn in life is that there’s always going to be someone who disagrees with you, and basing your self-confidence and convictions upoon how many people agree with you is a fool’s errand.

      Kai you really need to be more realistic.

      Define “realistic”, cmfeirs. I find and have acknowledged your attitude and feelings toward the Chinese and/or the problems in China to be realistic. I’ve always been very clear about that. I emphathize with you, but I don’t agree with how you carry yourself. Isn’t this being realistic? Being understanding but also being honest in disagreement? My end goal is for Chinese and non-Chinese to better understand each other and better get along with each other. I don’t think a persistently judgemental and self-righteous tone of condemnation is a very constructive way of interacting with each other. It’s realistic for how human it is, but is it unrealistic to fight for better? Isn’t the fight for ideals of mutual respect and treating each other as equals a mainstay of most human cultures, especially Western culture and ideology?

      This isn’t obfuscation. You’re largely upset with me because I’m criticizing your judgmental attitude when you’d prefer others to agree with your judgements. I daresay you’re feeling self-conscious. cmfeirs, I’ve acknowledged how understandable and legitimate your criticisms of China are. My disagreement with you is that the way you criticize serves more for you to reinforce your own narcissism and feelings of superiority or self-worth than they do to actually help the Chinese improve. You’re passing judgement, not trying to help. I can understand that proclivity because we all do that, but I just find you to be excessive, just as others find me to be excessive in other aspects.

      You want to argue with me, don’t try to prove your criticisms because I largely agree with them. Instead, prove to me that I’m wrong about your attitude because my criticism is of your attitude. When others criticize my attitude when I call people “idiots” or criticize my long-windedness, I own up to it. I don’t try to conflate and confuse issues of form and content. I get your content, I don’t agree with your form. Are you mature enough to acknowledge what I’m getting on your case for? You get on the case of the Chinese for something, I’m getting on your case for something else. Do you understand?

      I don’t think you look at the root cause of the anger from most of the foreigners who post on this site. In fact, if you did, you would not see it as anger and racism rather hostility and frustration.

      I think anger, racism, hostility, and frustration are all well-represented by enough foreigners on this site. I’ve repeatedly and openly said I understand, I get, I empathize with a lot of the feelings underlying the comments on this website. Haven’t I? I have. However, I’m pretty certain the only way you would see me as “understanding” is if I never take issue to them. That’s unreasonable. I can understand your feelings, but I can disagree with you guys not controlling them, being better people, and not indulging yourselves in venting them in destructive, offensive, indefensible, fallacious, hurtful, and even racist comments.

      Remember my comment on the Great Wall foreigner camping thread? I said I don’t know what was more disappointing: the usual anti-foreigner comments by ignorant Chinese or the usual anti-Chinese comments by foreigners who really, really should know better.

      Do you deny that many foreigners who leave comments on this website fashion themselves to be superior than the Chinese? Do you deny that many foreigners here routinely denigrate the Chinese for being ignorant, childish, immature, racist, illogical, hypocritical, etc.? Is it illogical for me to find it distasteful when foreigners who fashion themselves as better people to exhibit the same flaws and mistakes they criticize the Chinese for?

      If you can acknowledge how I feel, you’re on your way to better understand why it is I’m giving you a hard time. You’d be on your way to understand that I fully acknowledge your grievances, but I’m just asking you to be the better person you yourself portray yourself to be by being mindful of how you both internally deal with your frustrations and how you express them. You say you’re better than the Chinese, then show it.

      That’s what I’m asking of you. If you don’t feel like you have to, then you have no excuse to get upset with me pointing out how hypocritical you are, and how you’re really no better than the Chinese you’re bashing.

      I will give you an analogy so that you can better understand – It is like pulling your best friend aside after you caught his skank as gf with another guy. he wants to forgive her and work it our or maybe he responds with a contradictory argument because he doesn’t believe you. You finally must stick your finger in his face and say “Wake up, you moron”.

      You want to be realistic, then you’re going to have to first evidence that you treat the Chinese like your “best friend” because frankly, I don’t get that feeling from you or most of the foreigners on this website. This is an erroneous assumption in your argument. You expect me to assume that you mean the best when I’m telling you, quite clearly, that I don’t see that sentiment in your comments. Be realistic and acknowledge that. If I’m pushing back on you, it would behoove you to stop for a moment and actually consider not just what I say, but also what may be causing me to say it.

      You asked the same of me, didn’t you? You asked me to be understanding of your frustrations. My response to you was to point out how I HAVE repeatedly stated that I understand and to explain as best I can that I’m not saying you shouldn’t be frustrated, but I’m criticizing how you express that frustration. There’s a difference. It’s like people who agree with what I’m saying but find my long-windedness intolerable. They agree in content, but not in form.

      I get that you think you’re giving the Chinese some tough love, but being realistic, again, you’re largely kidding yourself thinking you’re doing the Chinese a favor by being tough with them, in English, on a website populated by mostly foreigners. You want to give the Chinese some tough love? Learn some Chinese and go talk to them in Chinese on a Chinese forum at least. You’d be reaching more people that way.

      So let’s set aside selfless notions of giving your “best friend” a bitchslap of reality, because that is NOT what you’re doing. You can spin it that way, but be honest with yourself, you’re preaching to the chorus and it is reassuring to have people agree with you. It feels good. You’re frustrated and angry, and you piss it out on chinaSMACK where most other people will agree with you. It’s catharsis.

      And then some long-winded Asian-looking guy named Kai comes and gets on your case for it. You feel your catharsis being interrupted, and you resent me for it. This is why I say you guys feel entitled to it. You want to bitch out the Chinese amongst like-minded people or in the privacy of your own home, by all means. But this is a public space, and we share it. You have your freedom to say your piece, I have mine. Just because I say something doesn’t mean I don’t “understand” you. “Understanding” you does not mean I need to ACCEPT what you do or say. Don’t foreigners always say the same when Chinese people plead for “understanding?”

      Again, I can understand your frustrations, I don’t have to accept or even be understanding of how you vent your frustrations in a public space that I’m in. Ming feels as much, but he’s being far less understanding than I am. He’s willing to just piss you off because you’re willing to piss him off. I’m actually trying to talk some sense into you.

      It is the same way people were upset about nations disrupting the torch relay. Everyone knew it was not about celebrating the progress of the Chinese people rather its government. It was a show – for the party and by the party. But, when the Chinese could not see that other nations and other people were trying to show solidarity in their struggle to change their lives (which will never happen if they do not change their government), the foreigners who risked ridicule and arrest felt betrayed.

      As I’ve explained above, my original reason for responding to you was more about your form than content. The above is an example of you shoving content at me and not actually recognizing what it is I’m actually pushing back on. As an aside and in response to your above statements, I want to say: You’re not putting yourself into the shoes of the Chinese people. You’d still more prone to dismiss Chinese disagreement with you as “brainwashing” instead of earnestly trying to understand why they may genuinely disagree with you on things like the significance of last year’s torch relay.

      The first step towards influencing other people is to accept their feelings and thoughts as genuine and sincere. Accusing them of being brainwashed isn’t going to get you anywhere. It shows that you’re not taking them seriously. “Oh, they’re just brainwashed” is the excuse people give to like-minded people when they fail. You want to be realistic? Realize this. Realize you’re not going to show how you, along with the “nations of the world”, are actually trying to show solidarity with the Chinese when you call them brainwashed. It’s easy to do, but thinking that would work is unrealistic.

      The 2008 Olympics WAS a big event to legitimize the CCP, but insofar as everyday Chinese co-opted it and felt proud of it, these feelings of their’s were genuine, sincere, real. Just as Americans take pride in displays of military strength with fighter jets flying at air shows. We, as people, all ascribe our own significance to things, even if they weren’t ours to begin with, even if others ascribe a different significance. It is callous of you to ignore that, to deprive everyday Chinese of their pride in hosting the Olympics because of your politics with the CCP.

      In the spirit of you giving me an analogy, let me offer you one to explain the above: Your new step-mother throws you a birthday party. She’s doing it because she wants to legitimize or build on her relationship with you, her step-kid. You go out and hand out invitations and your friends, instead of being enthusiastic to come celebrate your birthday, they instead tell you how much your step-mother is a bitch and doesn’t really treat you well enough.

      For fuck’s sake, its your birthday party!

      If you can understand that, maybe you can understand how many Chinese felt. It isn’t that your gripes about the CCP step-mother aren’t legit, it just wasn’t what the Chinese expected. Try to understand the very real expectations the Chinese had (however clueless they may have been about foreigners’ sentiments towards China overall), and try to understand how they felt in reaction to the reception you and those like you gave them. Does this make sense to you?

      Kai, you can do your best to gloss over the cold hard fact that if things don’t change in China soon, it will result in either a bloody revolution or a bloody third world war.

      I think the government in China IS changing, but it obviously isn’t changing as fast as either you or I want it to. The difference between you and I, is that I actually bother to try understanding why it isn’t that easy and why self-interest makes it all the harder. I DON’T think a bloody revolution or third world war is a cold hard fact. To me, it sounds like you’re damning China to that fate, which is about as sensitive and non-offensive as Ming damning America as being in rapid decline. Both you and Ming have your reasons and arguments to support such statements, but it sounds more like a curse than a warning. Americans certainly don’t like Chinese people gloating or warning about American decline, so do you expect anything less from the Chinese when people like you gloat or warn of China’s impending doom or as the harbringer of impending global doom?

      Are you starting to understand how you come across and how that either annoys people or pushes all the wrong buttons on some people? You come across as cursing and celebrating the downfall or destruction of another country, another society, another people. And you’re doing this as a citizen of the country that bears the majority burden of creating the financial crisis that has fucked the world, as a citizen of the country with the largest military spending, as the only country that has used nuclear weapons, as the country that has in recent history waged two wars in the Middle East. How could you NOT expect people to find your comments to be hypocritical and self-righteous, man?

      This is me slapping you and saying “Wake up, you moron!” And, I do think I really need to repeat and emphasize this: I’m not slapping you over the legitimacy of your concerns or criticisms, I’m slapping you over how fucked up you’re communicating yourself, and with what may lie at the root of why you feel compelled to communicate in this way.

      People like you are actually more fucked up than the openly racist people that pass by and comment on this website. Why? Because for most people, its actually easier to dismiss those people because the extremism and clear ignorance of their comments makes it easier to not take them seriously. You, on the other hand, aren’t nearly as retarded as they are, and your comments, arguments, etc., they’re persuasive. They sound good. It’s easy to read your comments and nod one’s head, but it doesn’t make your comments right or your comments constructive. They don’t challenge people to solve the problems, they encourage people to assign blame, denigrate, condemn, vent.

      That’s why I find it disingeneous that you’re passing yourself off as trying to help your “best friend”. You’re not, and I don’t really think you can legitimately claim that’s what you’re doing, or even what most foreigners are doing here. At least someone like Fcuk Da Lu Ren doesn’t try to sugar-coat his venting, he doesn’t try to pretend like all his insults, judgements, and condemnation was meant to help his “best friend”. He’s not putting those false airs about him.

      Try discussing Taiwan or Japan or the US with a group of ordinary Chinese and you can feel the hatred and anger.

      We must know different ordinary Chinese. I think you’re exaggerating. There’s resentment, but it is neither as widespread or as strong as you think it is, but maybe you have a different scale than I do. Personally, I think you’re just taking the fenqing too seriously, which would be the same mistake as taking redneck Americans too seriously. Extremists always have a disproportionately loud voice and representation in discourse. You look at the extremists of America and you’re quick to remind yourself that most of America is actually pretty moderate. You look at the extremists of China and you’re quick to think most of China are like them, extremists.

      That’s an unfair double-standard that is just plain wrong and unrealistic. No matter how distorted the media you read fashions the Chinese, you should have the common sense to remind yourself that most Chinese really aren’t that interested in such hardcore politics, just like Americans, just like people anywhere in the world. They want to grow up, make money, fuck, spawn, and enjoy their remaining years. Are you able to see them as human, as more similar to you than different in the vast majority of things? Because until you do, you’re always going to treat them like an object to be talked about instead of a person to be talked with.

      If you really want to do something to help China and the Chinese people, stop your long winded bullshit posts and speak directly about the problems China needs to address and possible sollutions to those problems.

      We’ll have to agree to disagree if you think what I’m saying is bullshit. I could say the same about what you’re saying but I think I’ve been very generous in taking you seriously, acknowledging your points, and taking the time to explain our disagreements. I often speak directly about the problems China faces, but I’m not interested in the mutual masturbation that occurs here of foreigners reassuring each other of their frustrations and anger towards the Chinese. I don’t owe it to you to make you feel good about what you think by agreeing or simply not objecting to what and how you comment.

      I do think I’m doing my part to help China tackle and solve its problems, but I obviously don’t do it in front of you or in the way you think is proper or acceptable. I reckon I do far more to help the Chinese than you’re capable of, or even interested in. We can even say taking you to task and asking you to be sensible and contructive here is an extremely miniscule part of me helping China, because until people like you can change your approach, you’re just going to continue alienating the Chinese and giving them a bad impression of Americans who ought to represent a great country and society.

      And I do discuss the problems that America faces, you can see my posts at Huffingtonpost.com – but Kai, this is Chinasmack or were you not able to read the print from where you’re sitting in your ivory tower, so much more mentally and morally superior than the rest of us?

      So you feel I’m being self-righteous, that I think I’m mentally and morally superior to you? Congratulations, then maybe you can understand how many other people feel when reading your comments about the Chinese. Can you accept that? That your annoyance with me is other people’s annoyance with you?

      Ming was the one who suggested that you’re not willing to admit the problems of America. Not me. I actually defended you on that point. I actually explained to him why you’d be talking about China on chinaSMACK. Did you not read that? I didn’t criticize you for not talking about America’s problems because I’m not stupid enough to think your comments on chinaSMACK are the sum total of all your topics of discussion (and why you should return the favor and not think I do nothing other than writing long-winded bullshit posts giving you a hard time). My point was trying to explain to you why Ming would try countering your criticisms of China with criticisms of America. I was trying to explain to you how him doing so is not a denial of China’s problems, but a criticism of your attitude. He found you arrogant, not wrong. Two different things, yet you persisted in trying to frame him as denying or glossing over China’s problems. You want to talk about China’s problems and you want others to talk about them with you. Ming already knows China’s problems and he’s not interested in talking about them with you because he doesn’t like how you’re approaching the subject. Your self-righteousness is in not seeing this, in not seeing just what exactly other people are objecting to because, perhaps, you think there is nothing objectionable about you or your behavior….which brings us to self-righteousness again.

      You don’t have to be in an ivory tower to see this. I’m not even sure why’re invoking an ivory tower anyway. Are you particularly impressed or intimidated by my educational background or something? I’m just a normal guy like you. We just disagree on certain things, that’s all. Form and content both matter in communication, especially in influencing positive change. Obama is a master of understanding this, as I’m sure you’ve read the same Huffington Post articles I have.

    • poor thing

      I recommend watching funny people. Hilarious. Theres this part where Seth Rogen’s character has to decide whether to intervene in George’s relationship with his ex-wife and he describe it as a train wreck… how’s that for analogies baby!!!! woohooo

      seriously, get your stick out of your ass and go find a hooker or something, will do you some good.

    • Charles

      You are tedious cmfeirs.

      • Fred

        @Charles

        You are tedious, Charles.

  • Fred

    @Kai

    You criticize cmfeirs’ argument because “He wants to limit this discussion with you to China and China’s problems, to the Chinese and the problem with Chinese people.”

    This is a blog devoted to Chinese issues, yes?

    Would it suit you more if the distinction was made between the PRC and the Chinese people? The two are not the same although the PRC Government has done its best to confuse the two. The PRC uses “Chineseness” to hide behind.

    The PRC is an alien one-party (90 million communist party members) dictatorship that rules over the Chinese people and uses censorship to control what the Chinese people read, learn, and think.

    There is nothing from Chinese culture or history that supports one-child per family.

    There is nothing in Chinese culture or history that supports the destruction of the environment in the name of “progress.”

    There is nothing in Chinese history or culture that supports forced abortions in the name of stability.

    There is nothing in Chinese culture that supports the garbage on CCTV.

    All of the above come from the PRC, an alien political organ placed on top of an ancient, traditional society.

    Kai, you have no guts or integrity to admit that the problems Westerners criticize are problems created by the PRC and that it is alien and contradictory to everything that is positive in Chinese culture and tradition.

    • Johnny Cage

      THUMBS UP !
      nice Fred you hit the spot!

      • poor thing

        THUMBS UP to you as well!
        nice you fit both his cock and balls in your mouth

        • trey

          to: Poor Thing

          Who’s your father? I mean who is your “real” father?

          The people who know you, say only your mother knows who he is.

          We laugh about you behind your back.

          • poor thing

            I guess you like the taste of cock too.
            Dont choke, hahahah

    • http://cnreviews.com Kai

      Fred,

      You criticize cmfeirs’ argument because “He wants to limit this discussion with you to China and China’s problems, to the Chinese and the problem with Chinese people.”

      This is a blog devoted to Chinese issues, yes?

      No, I’m not criticizing cmfeirs for discussing Chinese issues on a website about China. I’m criticizing him for how he discusses those issues. See above.

      Would it suit you more if the distinction was made between the PRC and the Chinese people? The two are not the same although the PRC Government has done its best to confuse the two. The PRC uses “Chineseness” to hide behind.

      My objection to cmfeirs was not really premised upon distiction between government and people, but I do think its generally good to make that distinction. I agree strongly that the PRC government tries to make itself the manifestation of “China” and “Chinese”. Like you, I find it incredibly dangerous, but I also happen to see it being what all parties in power do. For example, both the Democratic and Republican parties proclaim their Americanness, right? The problem with China here is that there’s no alternative and there’s an even more dangerous monopoly on power and representation.

      The PRC is an alien one-party (90 million communist party members) dictatorship that rules over the Chinese people and uses censorship to control what the Chinese people read, learn, and think.

      Alien? Otherwise, I generally agree, except I’d clarify that the censorship doesn’t give them perfect control.

      There is nothing from Chinese culture or history that supports one-child per family.

      Sure it does. In Chinese history, they had a lot of damn people. Now they’re overpopulated and they’ve made a tough decision to combat a very real problem. I don’t even know why you’re trying to frame the one-child policy in terms of history or culture. I suspect its because you find limiting reproduction to be some horrifying infringement of individual rights, but seriously and realistically, we ALL make compromises on personal liberty, even fundamental ones, with the interests of society (and ourselves) in mind.

      There is nothing in Chinese culture or history that supports the destruction of the environment in the name of “progress.”

      Of course not, but this is common to human history and culture. I bet aliens would condemn us as a race for this. The lack of consideration for the environment stems from the same sentiments in industralizing America. There’s just too many people who think its not worth fussing over, that everything will be okay, or it won’t impact them. The government of China is probably more conscious of environmental degredation and destruction than the average Chinese person, and the bulk of the reason is because the environment is less tangible and pressing of a concern to their other concerns. Maslow’s hiearchy, man.

      There is nothing in Chinese history or culture that supports forced abortions in the name of stability.

      Stability of what? Population? See above. For political purposes? Yes, fully agree with that that is dispicable. Unfortunately, we also live in a world where a lot of people think voluntary abortions in the name of “I’m not ready to give this child the life I want to give it” are pretty dispicable.

      There is nothing in Chinese culture that supports the garbage on CCTV.

      Is there anything in American culture that supports the garbage on FOX? C’mon, man, what kind of statements are these? Are you trying to list policies of the Chinese government that are controversial? What made you think I don’t find them controversial or that I, like you, often disagree with them? You’re building a straw-man.

      All of the above come from the PRC, an alien political organ placed on top of an ancient, traditional society.

      “Ancient, traditional”? What? Do you have romanticized notions of Chinese society? It is comments like these that there are so many critics of Westerners romanticizing places like Tibet. I’m amused you’ve applied the same thesis to China. The Communist Party is very much a grass-roots political entity. You can say they started from foreign political though (Marxism) but they’ve taken it and ran with it. For all their ills, the CCP has brought progress to China, or are you idealizing China’s past? What “ancient, traditional” society would you idealize China to be? This is ridiculous.

      Kai, you have no guts or integrity to admit that the problems Westerners criticize are problems created by the PRC and that it is alien and contradictory to everything that is positive in Chinese culture and tradition.

      Uh, bullshit. How can I have no “guts or integrity” to admit these problems when I have repeatedly and clearly acknowledged them? I also find your comments about the positives of Chinese culture and tradition to be paternalistic and patronising. I’m glad you see positives in Chinese culture and tradition, but please give me a break with romanticizing the past. You sound like “oh, you guys should totally regress to what you were so and so many years ago, because you guys are more cuddly that way.”

      My god, man.

  • Rob

    This story is great. It shows the real life of many Chinese people. Life is hard for them, and many times I wish I could just hand them a pile of cash and watch their reaction… but them what kind of lesson would I be teaching them? The world itself isn’t so kind and maybe it would be best to struggle to succeed rather than someone hand you a little bit of success and thereby downgrading your own struggle.

    Perplexing isn’t it? Just very interesting.

  • cmfeirs

    Nice retort Ming, however, I did not see your countrymen complaining about the arrogance of Americans or refusing our assistance when our countrymen were dying on your soil helping you drive out the Japanese in WWII. So, now we can’t offer suggestions to help your society become more free and independent by offering suggestions and highlighting glaring atrocities such as unenforced child labor laws? And don’t try to tell me that most Chinese choose this government you have because of the timing – you didn’t CHOOSE your government, not the form of government or the people in office. I find it ironic that your words actually support my opinion (albeit by accident) – “No matter how much we steal from you, no matter how much we falsely imprison people trying to change society for the better, no matter how many people are killed and tortured in labor camps and prisons, no matter how much we poison the water and food that your children consume, no matter how much we destroy our own lakes, lands, and rivers, no matter how much we conceal and censor the truth, no matter how much we have stolen your ability to think for yourselves – atleast we are also Chinese, so hate the foreigners instead; they are the real enemy, they made us do it.”

    • Ming

      The Chinese people choose this government in 1949.

      Read the history of how KMT lost popular support. It was a sad story for the KMT. They would have won if they didnt hog all the weapons. Many generals also defected to the CCP from KMT.

      Timing is important. I will not support any regime change in these developmental time. If you dont like the CCP, fight him yourself. Dont expect Chinese people to do your dirty work for you.

      • Ming

        PS: Chinese people still think of good will of the american during WW2.

        Trust me when I say this foolish american, there are very little historic hate between China and America.

        All the hate you see today is largely due to geopolitics and the arrogance of the american such as yourself.

        • http://cnreviews.com Kai

          This is very true, cmfeirs. The vast majority of Chinese have always looked extremely fondly at America. It is this attitude of “we helped you in WW2, so we have a right to lecture you whenever we want” that really hurts a historical and widespread admiration of America. It may not be fair, but Chinese people largely idolize and idealize America. That’s what makes it so much more jarring when an American like you rears his head.

          • Mike Fish

            Kai… not that your obligated to do so, but have you ever considered commenting on some of Mings mind farts?

          • http://cnreviews.com Kai

            Saw your “my bad” already and so you know I’ve actually previously commented on Ming several times in this thread. I do, however, largely think he’s doing what he’s doing just to annoy cmfeirs and Fred, fighting fire with fire, as we’re all apt to do sometimes. As far as playground rules go, its “cmfeirs started it!” I don’t agree with what Ming is doing, but I can understand why he’s doing it as much as I understand where cmfeirs is coming from. Most of what cmfeirs and Ming are saying are all legitimate but not very conducive to fostering the mutual respect necessary for both sides to actually accomplish any real good.

    • http://cnreviews.com Kai

      I did not see your countrymen complaining about the arrogance of Americans or refusing our assistance when our countrymen were dying on your soil helping you drive out the Japanese in WWII.

      Let’s see, the Nationalists banked on the Americans coming to their aid at the Battle of Shanghai but was left high and dry while America steadfastly refused to enter the war until itself was attacked at Pearl Harbor. America didn’t help the KMT secure China while a different political ideology led by Mao and the Communists appealed to the Chinese peasantry. Once that took hold, it become a cold war of ideology, with Americans and the remaining Nationalists seen as a dangerous enemy.

      And what does this have anything to do with American arrogance or complaining about it? Does China buying US Treasury Bonds have anything to do with Chinese arrogance or complaining about it?

      So, now we can’t offer suggestions to help your society become more free and independent by offering suggestions and highlighting glaring atrocities such as unenforced child labor laws?

      I won’t speak for Ming but I will speak for myself here. You’re not offering suggestions here, cmfeirs, you’re making condemnations and then getting angry that people react to them. Even most Americans get tired of Bush bashing by foreigners when it gets to a certain point and starts involving laundry lists of grievances and criticisms or an air of self-righteous hypocrisy.

      And don’t try to tell me that most Chinese choose this government you have because of the timing – you didn’t CHOOSE your government, not the form of government or the people in office.

      Technically…they have. By not revolting, they’ve implicitly accepted this political organization. Americans today also did not CHOOSE their governemnt. They inherited it and operate within it. It’s just that the American form of government (a bipartian republic, not a true democracy) allows for elections whereas the Chinese doesn’t. The Chinese today themselves inherited this system as well and enough of them think enough progress can be made THROUGH this system to continue abiding by it. Have you studied the concept of social contract before?

      No matter how much we steal from you, no matter how much we falsely imprison people trying to change society for the better, no matter how many people are killed and tortured in labor camps and prisons, no matter how much we poison the water and food that your children consume, no matter how much we destroy our own lakes, lands, and rivers, no matter how much we conceal and censor the truth, no matter how much we have stolen your ability to think for yourselves – atleast we are also Chinese, so hate the foreigners instead; they are the real enemy, they made us do it.

      What the fuck? Where did this come from? I don’t see this paragraph being said by Ming, much less even on this page.

  • Fred

    Kai: “The problem with China here is that there’s no alternative [to the Chinese Communist Party] and there’s an even more dangerous monopoly on power and representation.”

    Fred: That is exactly the point. With no “alternative” you have a monopoly, a dictatorship. This is not good.

    Fred: The PRC is an alien one-party (90 million communist party members) dictatorship that rules over the Chinese people and uses censorship to control what the Chinese people read, learn, and think.

    Kai: “Alien?”

    Fred: Doesn’t the “dictatorship of the proletariat” sound “alien” to you? China is the only country in the world (Vietnam and Cuba don’t count) with this backward form of government. Even the Russian, the originators, dumped it.

    The CCP played a role in China’s modern history. However, by using military and police power, they took control and monopolized all political power. This would be like the Democratic Party becoming sole ruler in the US. (Shit!)

    Fred: There is nothing from Chinese culture or history that supports one-child per family.

    Kai: “Sure it does. In Chinese history, they had a lot of damn people. Now they’re overpopulated and they’ve made a tough decision to combat a very real problem. I don’t even know why you’re trying to frame the one-child policy in terms of history or culture.”

    Fred: Sorry, Kai, but I think you missed my point. Having children, especially sons, has been a key element in Chinese culture. Chinese society has always been “overpopulated” – read your history. However, Chinese society survived and thrived without any government telling Chinese how many children to have.

    The PRC is the only government (Khmer Rouge excepted) that had rules that controlled when people could marry, who they could marry, how many babies they could have, where they could live, where they could work, if they could attend college, etc. This political intrusion into the very fabric of life of the Chinese people is alien to Chinese culture. The last dynasty that tried something like this was the Sui Dynasty but they lasted a short time like the PRC. The Sui was later followed by the Tang Dynasty. Maybe a “New Tang” will follow the short-lasting PRC.

    Kai: “I also find your comments about the positives of Chinese culture and tradition to be paternalistic and patronising. I’m glad you see positives in Chinese culture and tradition, but please give me a break with romanticizing the past.”

    Fred: Well, Kai, if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.

    The CCP is a historical fact. It played a major role in China’s development. However, in the 21st century, its role must change. It must give up its monopoly on political power. The good part is that there are large numbers of CCP leaders who know this. The Chinese people are no longer politically naive or inexperienced. They will eventually solve this problem but people like you, who avoid facing reality, only postpone the solution.

    In order for China to make a success of its long term development, it must evaluate the successes and mistakes of the last 60 years. Apologists like yourself do China no service by avoiding the obvious, namely, recognizing it is time for a fundamental change in China’s political system.

    • http://cnreviews.com Kai

      Fred,

      Fred: Doesn’t the “dictatorship of the proletariat” sound “alien” to you? China is the only country in the world (Vietnam and Cuba don’t count) with this backward form of government. Even the Russian, the originators, dumped it.

      China isn’t a “dictatorship of the proletariat” just as America isn’t a true democracy. You’re trying to make a statement based upon what a government calls itself, not what it actually is. More importantly, this statement you’re trying to make has nothing to do with what I’ve been criticizing cmfeirs for.

      The CCP played a role in China’s modern history. However, by using military and police power, they took control and monopolized all political power. This would be like the Democratic Party becoming sole ruler in the US. (Shit!)

      Why are you telling me things I already know, largely agree with, and have nothing to do with my objection to cmfeirs?

      Fred: Sorry, Kai, but I think you missed my point. Having children, especially sons, has been a key element in Chinese culture. Chinese society has always been “overpopulated” – read your history. However, Chinese society survived and thrived without any government telling Chinese how many children to have.

      Having children, especially sons, has been a key element in pretty much EVERY culture. I’m quite certain I know Chinese history far better than you. Chinese society has obviously survived population growth, but past survival has nothing to do with making policy decisions going forward. In the past, we were free to abuse oil, but we’re consciously making policy decisions to change our usage of such a resource because somewhere along the line we learned about “sustainability.” That you’re suggesting there is something inherently evil about the CCP government for trying to control overpopulation simply because past governments haven’t is retarded. How is that you don’t understand the concept of “realizing” a problem and then “taking steps” to fix that problem?

      The PRC is the only government (Khmer Rouge excepted) that had rules that controlled when people could marry, who they could marry, how many babies they could have, where they could live, where they could work, if they could attend college, etc.

      Really? The ONLY government that has done these things? I’ll give you a chance to reflect a bit further on this.

      This political intrusion into the very fabric of life of the Chinese people is alien to Chinese culture.

      Sure, I understand. What I don’t understand is why you’re telling ME this. Did I ever say it was part of Chinese “culture”? No, but I do recognize that governments make decisions that affect the societies they govern. Don’t you?

      The last dynasty that tried something like this was the Sui Dynasty but they lasted a short time like the PRC. The Sui was later followed by the Tang Dynasty. Maybe a “New Tang” will follow the short-lasting PRC.

      Well, given that the PRC hasn’t yet ended, it’s a bit premature for you to be using the past tense. Either way, if the “New Tang” is going to be better overall for China in the eyes of the Chinese, I’m all for it.

      Fred: Well, Kai, if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.

      The CCP is a historical fact. It played a major role in China’s development. However, in the 21st century, its role must change. It must give up its monopoly on political power. The good part is that there are large numbers of CCP leaders who know this. The Chinese people are no longer politically naive or inexperienced. They will eventually solve this problem but people like you, who avoid facing reality, only postpone the solution.

      Where am I advocating that the CCP’s role NOT change? Where am I suggesting that the CCP leaders do NOT know this? Where have I said the Chinese are poltiically naive or inexperienced? How am I not facing reality? Please quote me, in context.

      In order for China to make a success of its long term development, it must evaluate the successes and mistakes of the last 60 years.

      No shit! I’m all for it!

      Apologists like yourself do China no service by avoiding the obvious, namely, recognizing it is time for a fundamental change in China’s political system.

      LoL, this is just plain bullshit. Just because I have stated that many Chinese people today believe they can continue to progress and improve China WITHIN the current system does not mean I personally think this. I just recognize and am telling you an observed FACT. I fully understand that you think the current system needs to fundamentally change (fuck, I agree!), but sticking your head in the ground and ignoring the whim and will of the Chinese is paramount to the Chinese sticking their heads in the ground and ignoring the suggestions or criticisms of foreigners.

      If you, like cmfeirs, fashion yourself some crusader here to “help” China, you need to recognize the difference between influencing change and simply demanding it. You’re doing the latter, and you’re getting your panties in a twist because I’m pointing it out to cmfeirs, and by extension, probably you too.

  • cmfeirs

    Kai, I think you should compare the history of George Washington to that of Chairman Mao. They both led revolutions for the freedom of their people, they both pledged to fight corruption and monopolies on power, they both claimed to want independence and equality for their fellow countrymen. However, one of the two refused to serve more than 1 4 year term in power while another murdered or imprisoned anyone who questioned his power. Hmmmmmm, which one is which Kai????? There are many similarities between the rise of these 2 historical figures, however, one of the citizenry were hoodwinked, bamboozled, manipulated. Compare the lives of those in Taiwan and those in the mainland. Who actually wound up free with a sense of equality in society???? And inaction due to laziness is an action in itself and thus a choice, inaction due to fear of death or imprisonment is not the same thing. Quit making excuses for a murderous dictatorship. Your arguments are illogical. You bring up the purchase of American T-bonds – hey, kai, i think the Chinese would rather have a social welfare system rather than a trillion dollar investment in US treasury bonds – ohhh wait, they don’t have a choice do they? And don’t say American’s are closed-minded and arrogant and that we don’t listen to foreign criticism or suggestions. Do you see GW Bush in office? Do you see a republican in office? Ohhh wait, we can actually make changes and decisions here – after reading your latest long winded bullshit post I almost forgot.

    • Ming

      1) What kind of dumbass compare Washington with Mao? Sun yat sen was the founding father of China, not Mao. Mao is 3rd in command who got lucky during WW2.

      2) Comparing TW with Mainland? TW wasnt even a democracy until 1980ish. They hold a 1 party rule until 2000. TW economy and living standard is near the peak. China is still growing. There is no comparison unless you factor in growth rate and potential.

      3) Noone excuse CCP past and present attitude toward power. But we do consider their contribution to China’s economic growth and military might. Do american excuse iraq war, viet war, 10 trillion dollar debt, torture, illegal occupation, Lobbyist, spying on local population…etc

      4) The Chinese just started social welfare for the elderly. They also have plan for universal health care and social sceruity. I would laugh my ass off if China can get universal health care before the US.

      5) Perhaps the American can stop borrowing money and start paying off your 10 trillion dollars debt? You can do that by: stopping your war, cut your military budget, stop wasting money on insurance companies, and stop bailing out private bankers. —oh wait, you dont have a choice do you, the lobbyist in the US will always insure special interest over people’s interest. So sad for your fail democracy.

      6)Its pretty hard not judging american as arrogant retards after reading your post.

      7) Bush already got his 8 years worth. He cant run for another election under the american constitution. Now you have Obama. An inexperience puppets that got elected due to his skin color.

      8) How is the recession in the US? I heard the unemployment rate is 9.6%. China is still growing at 6-8 % this year. Need a job? I can offer you to work at my factory here in Goung zhou. I will pay you 1000 yuan. You can sleep at the workers dormitory and eat at the company cafeteria, so that you can save some money for your government to repay the national debt.

      • http://cnreviews.com Kai

        Ming,

        1) What kind of dumbass compare Washington with Mao? Sun yat sen was the founding father of China, not Mao. Mao is 3rd in command who got lucky during WW2.

        I wouldn’t compare Sun Yat-Sen with George Washington either. It’s silly to compare historical figures and judge one to be better or worse than the other in any overall sense. Their situations are simply too different to be compared. If you limit it to a very narrow thing like “who was more influential” or “who was braver”, then maybe. At least you can then try to impress each other with historical anecdotes and arguments for why those anecdotes prove one thing or another about influence or bravery or whatever. But overall “better” or “worse” is just silly.

        Imagine trying to compare Batman with Superman. What makes either great heroes is entirely different, but if you narrow it down to something like “intelligence” then you can have fun saying, “oh, Batman is clearly more intelligent because…”. For something like “sheer strength”, then you can clearly have good arguments for Superman. For “heroism”, you’d get interesting arguments about how Superman being largely invincible doesn’t make him a hero, a person who risks personal harm for others.

        Don’t fall into cmfeirs’ erroneous comparisons.

        3) Noone excuse CCP past and present attitude toward power. But we do consider their contribution to China’s economic growth and military might. Do american excuse iraq war, viet war, 10 trillion dollar debt, torture, illegal occupation, Lobbyist, spying on local population…etc

        Some Americans do and some don’t, just like some Chinese excuse the CCP’s past and present attitude toward power.

        5) Perhaps the American can stop borrowing money and start paying off your 10 trillion dollars debt? You can do that by: stopping your war, cut your military budget, stop wasting money on insurance companies, and stop bailing out private bankers. —oh wait, you dont have a choice do you, the lobbyist in the US will always insure special interest over people’s interest. So sad for your fail democracy.

        Special interests are also the “people’s” interest, just a smaller subset of people, Ming. The CCP is a special interest as well, and they often look out for their interests over the “people’s” interests. Remember that the continuation of the CCP as the top organ of power and government in China is the CCP’s first priority.

        I don’t think America has a failed democracy just because it has problems, even big problems. Any political system like “democracy” is not a solution for problems, but a system for how problems are dealt with. No political system or ideology is a “cure”, they’re only “treatments.” Many democracy-activists think democracy will cure China’s ills. The smart ones don’t. They simply think it will treat the ills better than other options. Many people in China simply aren’t convinced that this “democracy” treatment is better than the “treatment” they currently have (one-party state).

        7) Bush already got his 8 years worth. He cant run for another election under the american constitution. Now you have Obama. An inexperience puppets that got elected due to his skin color.

        Don’t say dumb shit like this, Ming. He wasn’t elected on his skin color alone and while many do worry about his inexperience (many pro-Obama people are currently perplexed with the health care issue and how Obama’s administration is handling it), I don’t think a good argument can be made for judging him as an “inexperienced puppet” right now. But that’s just my opinion.

        8) How is the recession in the US? I heard the unemployment rate is 9.6%. China is still growing at 6-8 % this year. Need a job? I can offer you to work at my factory here in Goung zhou. I will pay you 1000 yuan. You can sleep at the workers dormitory and eat at the company cafeteria, so that you can save some money for your government to repay the national debt.

        Okay, I know you’ll say you just want to treat them like they’re treating Chinese. I just want to say this sort of taunt is immature and not helpful. It also proves that Chinese and foreigners alike can indulge in such immaturity and offensiveness.

        • Ming

          Kai… Half the stuff I said were cherry picked critics design to attack the imperfect society called america. I do this to show case the double standard of american criticism and to show case their lack of moral high ground.

          Regarding the comparison between Sun and Washington, I argue that it is more appropriate because they are the founding fathers. Mao, is more of a revolutionary leader that won the civil war. He won not because he is a better general…just that he got lucky in WW2, and popular support after the war.

          Also, regarding special interest: I disagree. Special interest is not the “people’s” interest. CCP look out for their own power the same way the FED look out for their own bankers buddies. These interest do not benefit the greater goods of the people. Under normal circumstances, the government should not allow these special interest to exist. My rant about special interests is to compare them in China (CCP) and in America (FED, AIPAC, military industries, big oil, tobacco…)

          • Mike Fish

            You can’t compare George Washington to Sun Yatsen… George Washington was much taller! Besides, GW would’d be more like combining the benevolent do-goodie-ness of Sun Yatsen with the cool-under-pressure-ness of Zhou Enlai with the military prowess of Zhu De with the wisdom and caution of Ye Jianying. Plus, you’d have to throw in a Chinese leader who could survey and make really good whiskey to even come close to old George Washington!

        • Mike Fish

          My bad Kai… you did comment on some of Ming’s mind farts. Thanks.

  • http://cnreviews.com Kai

    cmfeirs, short of time so if I missed any other responses above, I’ll get to them later.

    Kai, I think you should compare the history of George Washington to that of Chairman Mao.

    What did you say about erroneous comparisons?

    After everything that has been said, the fact that you bring out this line really proves that you’re not in this here to help the Chinese, you’re just trying to show how you/Americans/foreigners are “superior” and the Chinese are “inferior”. What other purpose would you have for asking me to compare two historical figures that existed in wildly different time periods in wildly different circumstances?

    LOL! You still think this discussion is about which country, culture, society is better! How insecure can you be, man? What is with your incessant need to put others down and elevate yourself? This is precisely what I find objectionable about your attitude. This is the “my dad is better than your dad” line fucking brats chant in kindergarten. Grow up.

    Quit making excuses for a murderous dictatorship.

    Please quote where I’m doing that, in context please.

    Your arguments are illogical.

    Please quote and explain how they are so.

    You bring up the purchase of American T-bonds

    …and you completely failed to understand the point of me bringing them up and instead chose to fallaciously misrepresent why I brought them up to suggest a position I don’t hold.

    And don’t say American’s are closed-minded and arrogant and that we don’t listen to foreign criticism or suggestions.

    Why would you think I’d say that? If I were to say that, I’d say SOME Americans are indeed close-minded, arrogant, and don’t listen to foreign criticism. I don’t think that could be proven to be false. I would say that YOUR behavior here is arrogant, close-minded, and an embarrassment to Americans as a whole.

    Do you see GW Bush in office? Do you see a republican in office? Ohhh wait, we can actually make changes and decisions here

    Your point here is that Americans can fix their mistakes. Fundamentally, this is the same as Deng Xiaoping reversing Mao’s catastrophic policies. In the history of humanity, we have all been capable of making decisions and reversing them. The difference between China and America is the political structure through which change is brought about, not that change can happen in one but not the other.

    – after reading your latest long winded bullshit post I almost forgot.

    Right, it generally doesn’t help you when you don’t listen and respond appropriately to what the other side is saying. This makes you the same as those you criticize for not listening to you. This show your own inability to listen to criticism. You don’t even know what I’m on your case about. This is your self-righteousness.

  • fireworks

    I think the central government is doing something about Guizhou. Guizhou is a poor province landlocked between Yunnan, Sichuan, Guangxi and Hunan heavily dependant on its rich cultural history and tourism.

    The people who can afford a train ticket, will often go to Guangdong or Chongqing to get a better wage and support their families.

    Those that can’t often have to work in old unsafe industrial estates like this girl. Hopefully, with CEPA with Hong Kong and improve trade relations, foreign investment will increase in Guizhou and improve the employment opportunities for people over there.

  • Fred

    @cmfeirs

    It seems that Ming (the Magnificent) and Kai have taken lessons from the video “Chinese Middle School Students Crazy Fights.” They want to beat you. If you want them to stop distorting your comments and calling you names, you must kowtow 9 times and then kiss their asses. This will make them feel better and give them big face.

    cmfeirs, Kai really likes you. As he said, “my original reason for responding to you [cmfeirs] was more about your form than content.”
    cmfeirs, you can call Kai a silly, insecure fool as long as you put sugar on it.

    Although Kai has a weakness for verbosity, Ming (the Magnificent) likes to insult people. He’s crude, rude, and stupid which are the general characteristics of little Guangzhou shopkeepers.

    As Ming (the Magnificent) said, “I can offer you [cmfeirs] to work at my factory here in Goung zhou. I will pay you 1000 yuan. You can sleep at the workers dormitory and eat at the company cafeteria, so that you can save some money for your government to repay the national debt.”

    What a guy! cmfeirs, whatever you do after you kowtow to Kai and Ming (the Magnificent) and kiss their “little emperor” asses, do NOT take a job from Ming (the Magnificent). He serves only cabbage soup in his company cafeteria.

    Anyway, back to Berkeley Kai.

    It’s difficult to know where to start in debating him.

    However, there seems to be a common motif that enters all his criticisms of you:

    “you’re [cmfeirs] just trying to show how you/Americans/foreigners are “superior” and the Chinese are ‘inferior’.”

    “you [cmfeirs] to reinforce your own narcissism and feelings of superiority or self-worth than they do to actually help the Chinese improve.”

    “Do you [cmfeirs] deny that many foreigners who leave comments on this website fashion themselves to be superior than the Chinese?”

    “Do you [cmfeirs] deny that many foreigners here routinely denigrate the Chinese for being ignorant, childish, immature, racist, illogical, hypocritical, etc.?”

    “Is it illogical for me to find it distasteful when foreigners who fashion themselves as better people to exhibit the same flaws and mistakes they criticize the Chinese for?”

    “You say you’re [cmfeirs] better than the Chinese, then show it.”

    I think I smell a rat or something.

    If you search the Oxford Advanced Learner’s English-Chinese Dictionary, you will notice that there is a definition for “inferiority complex.”

    The Chinese publication of the Foreign Language Teaching and Research Press English-Chinese Dictionary also has a definition for “inferiority complex.”

    However, neither dictionary has a listing for “superiority complex.” This term is found only in American dictionaries.

    cmfeirs, Kai is extremely sensitive to the fact that you American whites make the “Celestial Ones” feel inferior as you walk around with your airs of superiority as if you were God’s gift to the world.

    Blacks, Chinese, Arabs, and many Latin Americans, all experience a high degree of an inferiority complex. The mobile phones they use, the clothes they wear, the weapons they fight with are all created by Western (American) white boys. Hell! Even the language they must learn in order to write their stupid whinges and complaints is not their own language – it belongs to the the Americans and the English.

    After demonstrating and throwing rocks and paint at the American Embassy, they must retreat to McDonald’s, KFC, or Pizza Hut to plan their next attack. This is very embarrassing when noted by Westerners.

    To add insult to injury, the medium of the internet, along with the computers they use, are all created by the “superior” ones.

    Now, cmfeirs, wouldn’t you feel a tad insecure, maybe, on a bad day, even a little “inferior”?

    What Kai, in his long-winded, confused way is trying to tell you is to “chill.” He knows the drill. He knows what’s wrong with China. He also knows the limits of what he and others can do about the problem.

    What he doesn’t like is to have his (China’s) face rubbed in shit while some foreigner say, “Bad dog, bad dog.”

    In the future, cmfeirs, please be more sensitive to Kai’s feelings. Once he learns how to attack (debate), he and the other “inferiors” will be deadly.

    • http://cnreviews.com Kai

      Fred, how cute, you’ve resorted to making up silly names! Speaking for myself (not Ming), I don’t think I can distort your comments when I QUOTE THEM ALMOST ALL THE TIME. However, I’m sure you’re just feeling “distorted” because I’m highlighting how your comments reveal your ugly sides and are offensive to others. You’d prefer your comments to be received as unassailable truths, and anyone who doesn’t see them quite that way are now “distorting” you. That’s cute.

      Although Kai has a weakness for verbosity, Ming (the Magnificent) likes to insult people.

      And how is this entire comment of your’s any less verbose and insulting? Hypocrisy 1, Fred 0.

      kiss their “little emperor” asses,

      LoL, here we go again, people making assumptions about my identity. What makes you think I’m a “little emperor”, Fred? LoL…

      It’s difficult to know where to start in debating him.

      You can start by reading what I say, quoting and discussing what you disagree with, and being sure not to write anything that isn’t contradicted by other things I’ve said or is simply you projecting a straw man onto me.

      However, there seems to be a common motif that enters all his criticisms of you: [quotes of Kai crticizing cmfeirs' superiority complex]

      Why yes, that would be a common motif in my criticisms of cmfeirs’ comments when I see cmfeirs behaving that way in said comments. Imagine that!

      If you search the Oxford Advanced Learner’s English-Chinese Dictionary, you will notice that there is a definition for “inferiority complex.”

      Oh, that’s original. I accuse cmfeirs of having a superiority complex and you accuse me of having an inferiority complex. LoL…

      However, neither dictionary has a listing for “superiority complex.” This term is found only in American dictionaries.

      Is it really? And the significance of this is…?

      cmfeirs, Kai is extremely sensitive to the fact that you American whites make the “Celestial Ones” feel inferior as you walk around with your airs of superiority as if you were God’s gift to the world.

      Are you drunk? For the record, I’m sensitive to anyone who walks around with an air of superiority. I think most people are likewise averse. You?

      Blacks, Chinese, Arabs, and many Latin Americans, all experience a high degree of an inferiority complex. The mobile phones they use, the clothes they wear, the weapons they fight with are all created by Western (American) white boys. Hell! Even the language they must learn in order to write their stupid whinges and complaints is not their own language – it belongs to the the Americans and the English.

      After demonstrating and throwing rocks and paint at the American Embassy, they must retreat to McDonald’s, KFC, or Pizza Hut to plan their next attack. This is very embarrassing when noted by Westerners.

      To add insult to injury, the medium of the internet, along with the computers they use, are all created by the “superior” ones.

      Uh…LoL! Wow…

      Now, cmfeirs, wouldn’t you feel a tad insecure, maybe, on a bad day, even a little “inferior”?

      What Kai, in his long-winded, confused way is trying to tell you is to “chill.” He knows the drill. He knows what’s wrong with China. He also knows the limits of what he and others can do about the problem.

      Chill is part of it. The other part is to understand why cmfeirs needs to chill and, surprise, for him to learn the limits of what he and others can do about the problem. This includes learning that being and ass and claiming that doing so is an effective way for him to “help” the Chinese is not the most effective way to actually, well, “help” the Chinese, or most people for that matter.

      What he doesn’t like is to have his (China’s) face rubbed in shit while some foreigner say, “Bad dog, bad dog.”

      I fail to see how this is different from me saying you and cmfeirs don’t like having your faces rubbed in shit by some guy with an Asian-looking photo.

      In the future, cmfeirs, please be more sensitive to Kai’s feelings. Once he learns how to attack (debate), he and the other “inferiors” will be deadly.

      LoL…so, debating involves making up names like Fred to Fantastic and generally being immature? LoL…alright, man, whatever.

    • Ming

      Your rant would have been great, if only you realize:

      1)”The mobile phone we use, the cloths we wear”, are all made in China. The brand on these products are: american, EU, Japan, SK, and domestic Chinese brands. There are also branding from other countries as well.

      2)Chinese can not buy weapons from “white boys”. You guys put an embargo on us. We have to develop our self or steal your blue prints. By the way, if you want to sell us your weapon, we would gladly play your superior complex card. Just sell us your missiles and stealth jets please. We will only buy 1 of each thou.

      3) I like pizza hut and KFC. Why are you making fun of american restaurants?

      4) Computers are also made in China. I guess you are right, we are the “superior” one. haha

      5) The internet was “invented” by British, not american. And noone can control the “internet”.

      6) How is american recession and debt going? Tell me when you guys are begging for a job, I got some kitchen and cleaner job that pays 1000 yuan each. I would love to hire some white folks to do these dirty works. You would make a great white slave.

  • LOLZ

    Those from wealthy Western nations know very well this is exactly how they can buy cheap shit all the time from the likes of Walmart, but what do they care?

    The sad thing is that even if China drives out all underage sweat shops you know that the practice will just move to another 3rd world nation in the south like Vietnam or India.

  • cmfeirs

    kai – what you don’t seem to realize is that the time for slow progress is over. China is on edge as I said. And, the reason I draw comparisons between Chinese and the est, is to highlight the differences. It may make people angry, but too bad. I do not feel any race is more superior to any other. What angers me about China and the Chinese people and you, is the constant sugarcoating of what the government is doing to its own people and its own environment under the guise of social and economic progress. It makes the citenzry feel better about the stifling conditions, both physical and intellectual, that they endure. Example: When America went through its most rapid economic and scientific progress (1950′s and 60′s) many people used lead based paint in new home construction, kitchens, bathrooms, bedrooms, even nurseries. However, scientific research concluded that lead based paint contrivbuted to developmental problems and rates of certain cancers. Following that report, lead based paints were banned. Now, the scientific study was no secret. Western scientists shared the information with each other. Asian scientists had acces to the information as well and probably did their own study and came to the same conclusion. Now, it is not necessary for the Chinese to use lead pain as it is dangerous, however, it is easier to manufacture and produce. So, it is still widely used in China. This is what foreigners hate. Purposely destroying lives and environment when, albeit other countries did do it at one point in history too, they HAVE the knowledge to do better! Everyone keeps saying, well, they are developing, England was the world’s largest polluter during the Industrial Revolution. Yes, and they learned from their mistake. Scientists in America studied the detrimental effects of smog and carbon emission on lung tissue. Laws were changed, Progress was made. I feel bad for the majority of the Chinese people for this reason. My anger is always directed at those in power or those who apologize for them. The Chinese people need to stop using the excuse that they are “following the path of other countries” or “copying them in order to catch them”. The Chinese government knows what is unhealthy and dangerous for its citizens, but they refuse to do anything about it unless it becomes too big to cover up. Look at the 600 children recently diagnozed with lead poisoning from a nearby smelting factory! Are you telling me the government doesn’t know that children or even a village of people should not be within 1 km of a smelting factory. They know the dangers. they know factories are unsafe. they know they need to modernize plants, but they only do what is in the best interest of the CCP and they raised a post Tianemen generation hell bent on blaming the foreigners for society’s problems to keep anyone from questioning their decisions and hold on power.

    Ming – I really can’t debate you on your country’s history since you do not have the freedom to actually research it. Also, the internet was an offshoot of ARPANET, and American invention from our famed military industrial complex. And, thanks for the offer of work at your factory Ming, but I would rather be poor than dead from cancer or black lung disease in 2 years. Good luck to you.

    • http://cnreviews.com Kai

      cmfeirs,

      kai – what you don’t seem to realize is that the time for slow progress is over.

      And it is completely fine for you to have that opinion…just as it is fine for others to not share that opinion. You’re not asking me to accept that you think China needs faster progress, you’re asking me to accept the way you behave. I don’t accept it, and you still don’t realize what it is I’m objecting to. Can you stop for a moment and reflect upon that?

      China is on edge as I said. And, the reason I draw comparisons between Chinese and the est, is to highlight the differences.

      And Ming draws comparisons between America and China to highlight the similarities. Both of you are doing so out of frustration against each other. You think the Chinese don’t face their shortcomings. Ming thinks you’re being a bit too arrogant. Can you acknowledge this? If you can’t, then you’re precisely guilty of my objection with your behavior: being self-righteous.

      It may make people angry, but too bad.

      Ming clearly feels the same way making you angry with what he’s doing. Which one of you are right? I’d say neither, because both of you are just screaming and neither of you are actually bridging your differences to solve a common problem both of you apparently recognize and would be interested in solving. Remember, the content is largely agreed upon, but form is the problem.

      I do not feel any race is more superior to any other.

      I suspect otherwise based upon how you’ve carried yourself here. But that’s just my opinion. I can only judge you by your actions, and your actions speak louder than your words at this point.

      What angers me about China and the Chinese people and you, is the constant sugarcoating of what the government is doing to its own people and its own environment under the guise of social and economic progress.

      How am I sugarcoating anything? Please quote me. I think you have a preconception of a Chinese apologist or nationalist and you’ve projected that preconception onto me for the mere act of me disagreeing with you on anything. You’re not being fair to me because you’re misrepresenting my positions. Worse still, you’re not reading what I’m writing. Have you noticed that I have consistently quoted and addressed each part of your comments? This is how I can confidently say and show that I’m reading and responding directly to what you’re saying.

      I have no objections with you feeling angry over the government justifying what it does under the guise of social and economic progress. I share many of the very same criticisms and anger as you do. If that’s the case, then why is it that I’m arguing with you here? You notice me arguing with you, but despite my repeated explanations, you have to this point failed to understand what my objection is with you. That is why you persist in trying to pigeonhole me as an apologist with positions I have clearly stated not to hold. You’re not reading, not listening, not respecting others.

      It makes the citenzry feel better about the stifling conditions, both physical and intellectual, that they endure. Example: When America went through its most rapid economic and scientific progress (1950’s and 60’s) many people used lead based paint in new home construction, kitchens, bathrooms, bedrooms, even nurseries. However, scientific research concluded that lead based paint contrivbuted to developmental problems and rates of certain cancers. Following that report, lead based paints were banned. Now, the scientific study was no secret. Western scientists shared the information with each other. Asian scientists had acces to the information as well and probably did their own study and came to the same conclusion. Now, it is not necessary for the Chinese to use lead pain as it is dangerous, however, it is easier to manufacture and produce. So, it is still widely used in China. This is what foreigners hate. Purposely destroying lives and environment when, albeit other countries did do it at one point in history too, they HAVE the knowledge to do better!

      Yes, China has the option to do better and they have in many areas, but they haven’t in others. I know this. I’ve made the same criticisms on this website and with Chinese people many times before. So the question is: Why? Why do the Chinese sometimes, often, all too often do something in a way that does not take advantage of those who have learned better before?

      Well, there are a lot of understandable (though not necessarily justifiable) reasons for this. I believe your mistake is in not actually considering these, and jumping to conclusions that the Chinese are inherently evil, selfish, etc. etc. etc. No one is asking that you ACCEPT those understandable reasons, but in acknowledging them and considering them, you’d have a better appreciation for not just the problem, not just the many smaller problems that build up to this larger problem, but also the very real and very difficult challenges of solving these problems.

      The more time you spend on trying to pin blame on certain parties, the less time you’re spending actually trying to solve these problems, because these problems are systemic, institutional, historical, generational, etc. The CCP and its actions or inactions are INDEED a major source or contributor to these problems, but is replacing it 1) so easy or 2) necessarily the answer? Next, how you answer those questions may not be how others answer. It may not be how the Chinese answer those questions. And as an American, you of all people should understand and support the Chinese people’s right to self-determination. You can be angry with what they determine for themselves, but is it really American of you to cross the line into suggesting that you should determine things for them? How different is that from the CCP determining things for them?

      At the end of the day, the Chinese people have chosen to abide by the CCP. You may not like it, “but too bad.” They have chosen the CCP over you, cmfeirs. They trust the CCP more than they trust you, cmfeirs. You can be angry and you can fight to overthrow, destabilize, etc. this situation. Go for it, but I don’t think you’re doing a good job of it. You’re not bringing the Chinese onto your side, you’re not convincing them to listen to you, to agree with you. You’re alienating them with your penchant for passing judgement, making condemnations, and bragging about how America is so much better. This is NOT a very effective way to influence people and bring about change.

      You want faster progress? Your behavior is slowing that progress down because you’re not empowering the Chinese people, you’re pissing them off.

      Everyone keeps saying, well, they are developing, England was the world’s largest polluter during the Industrial Revolution. Yes, and they learned from their mistake. Scientists in America studied the detrimental effects of smog and carbon emission on lung tissue. Laws were changed, Progress was made. I feel bad for the majority of the Chinese people for this reason.

      Your frustrations are entirely understandable to me. It’s like parents feeling frustrated when their children don’t listen to their advice, make the same mistakes, and risk hurting themselves “unnecessarily”. It’s exactly like that, cmfeirs. Think about it. Unfortunately, while it would be prudent for China to take advantage of all the wisdom of those who have come before it, it has the choice and free-will to do otherwise. The parents can advise all they want, but at the end of the day, the only way you can legitimately say you respect China and the Chinese as your equals, not your inferiors, is to let them make the final decision.

      Do you understand what I’m saying here?

      My anger is always directed at those in power or those who apologize for them.

      …And those you mistaken as being apologists for them.

      And that’s not cool of you. As Fred said, I’m telling you to “chill”, take a step back, and be mindful of how you’re behaving, how that helps or hurts the Chinese, and how that reflects upon Americans.

      The Chinese people need to stop using the excuse that they are “following the path of other countries” or “copying them in order to catch them”. The Chinese government knows what is unhealthy and dangerous for its citizens, but they refuse to do anything about it unless it becomes too big to cover up. Look at the 600 children recently diagnozed with lead poisoning from a nearby smelting factory! Are you telling me the government doesn’t know that children or even a village of people should not be within 1 km of a smelting factory.

      They government knows, but why do you think they allow these things to happen? Is it a) because they’re evil, greedy, selfish, or b) the benefits of doing this is perceived to be worth the costs?

      You can’t limit it to just the government either, cmfeirs. They’re not the only player. You want to be realistic, right? Then you have to consider everything else such as the people who need the jobs the smelting factory provide or the companies who purchase from this smelting factory. You really cannot just point your finger at the government and say “you should just not allow this!” It just doesn’t work that way. The government has to consider the effects of such a decision and weigh them all. This isn’t to say that many injustices or horrors are caused by government mistakes, corruption, etc., I’m just saying that knowledge that a factory is dangerous alone has to compete with other very real and legitimate interests. People risk and sacrifice their health for their other interests ALL THE TIME. Countries risk and sacrifice the health of their citizens for the interests of the government ALL THE TIME.

      I know what you’re angry with, but I’m angry with how simplistic you view these things. I’m all for more, better, faster progress, but the way you’ve been conducting yourself in past comments has not been helping.

      They know the dangers. they know factories are unsafe. they know they need to modernize plants, but they only do what is in the best interest of the CCP and they raised a post Tianemen generation hell bent on blaming the foreigners for society’s problems to keep anyone from questioning their decisions and hold on power.

      Things don’t just modernize themselves by wanting them to modernize. The CCP does cater to its own interests, but in order for them to maintain their hold on power, they have to ensure that enough of their interests include the interests of the people who allow them to maintain their hold on power. Remember I asked if you’ve studied concepts of social contract? This is what I’m talking about. You’re guilty of the very same misconception many Americans have of Chinese people. You think the government does not have popular support, or if it does, it is from brainwashed drones. This is a critical mistake that completely leads you down the wrong path towards influencing change in China. It is, as I’ve said before, evidence of you not taking the Chinese people seriously. It is enthnocentric.

      I really don’t understand how you can read chinaSMACK and simplify the Chinese people into blaming foreigners for all of China’s problems. Oh, of course, there are plenty of translated comments representing that, but there are also plenty of comments showing how that is only a subset of the population, even of the post-Tiananmen generation. That you consistently characterize the Chinese this way shows me that you don’t have a sophisticated understanding of the Chinese people and without a sophisticated understanding, how can you hope to effectively influence them and thus help them?

      cmfeirs, this most recent comment of your’s was much more civil in tone and substance. I still think you haven’t grasped what it is I’m upset with you about, but I appreciate this turn in our debate/argument. Please try to argue with me about MY position and arguments instead of what YOU ASSUME about me. I still encourage you quoting and responding to my own words, instead of what you imagine I represent.

    • Ming

      cmfeirs- I really cant debate with you on your country’s history and foriegn policy since you do not have the brain power or knowledge to actually know what you are talking about. Your “famed” american military industrial complex is not the only defense industry in the world. But even if it is, Your government to this date have not lifted your weapons embargo on China.

      PS: I heard 60% of american cant find UK on the world map. Are you one of them? I hope you go back to school soon man, at least you can be a little more educated before you die of your “cancer or black lung disease”.

      • Mike Fish

        It’s funny how good you are at mocking the US and Americans yet I’d bet big money you’d be on a plane to the US in a heartbeat if you had the visa and the cash.

        BTW…what’s your problem with Americans? I went back through the posts before yours and only 2 mentioned America and neither of them were critical of China but were in fact critical of America. They also defended logic in general because of suggestions that poor people in China are somehow better than other poor people. Nobody posted saying America was better than China before you started throwing your shit.

        I’m convinced you are Fcuk Daluren’s alter ego, out to make Chinese people look like the sterotype he loves to fcuk, with. So, that begs the questioning, who am I arguing with?

    • LOLZ

      “What angers me about China and the Chinese people and you, is the constant sugarcoating of what the government is doing to its own people and its own environment under the guise of social and economic progress.”

      Have you ever considered why do people, especially those with families still in China “sugarcoat” what’s going on in China?

      Most of my relatives in China went from having no telephones, no fridges, no heat, no running hot water, etc to having all that plus a lot more. There are at least a few hundred millions of Chinese who fall into this category. Now according to you, to defend this progress is “sugarcoating”?

      “This is what foreigners hate. Purposely destroying lives and environment when, albeit other countries did do it at one point in history too, they HAVE the knowledge to do better!”

      Really? So why don’t the US ban McDonalds? The leading cause of death in this country is heart attacks and some 80% of all the US population is overweight. The government and the people have the knowledge to do better but they won’t, because capitalism at the end wins the day.

      In fact, capitalistic greed is what is responsible for the tainted milk, the lead paints, etc. At the same time, it’s also the source for innovation.

    • Charles

      please indent! thanx!

  • Fred

    @Ming (the Magnificent) – google it and find out who he was –

    (Google, another Western invention)

    Hahaha!

    It was only a matter of time for you to crawl out from under your rock.

    You’re living up to the stereotype of Guangzhou petty shop keepers being crude, rude, and stupid.

    Ming: “‘The mobile phone we use, the cloths we wear’, are all made in China. The brand on these products are: american, EU, Japan, SK, and domestic Chinese brands.”

    You missed the point, Ming (the Magnificent). The basic invention, innovation, and ideas have all come from the West.

    Of course, cheap Chinese “slave” labor in factories like your own produce the Nokias, Guccis, LVs, etc. But these products are for the benefit of foreign companies and foreign markets. Ming, the basic concept and innovation come from the West. There have been no inventions or innovations in China in the last 500 years. What China contributes is “slave” labor.

    Ming: “I can offer you to work at my factory here in Goung zhou. I will pay you 1000 yuan. I would love to hire some white folks to do these dirty works. You would make a great white slave.”

    Your 1000 Chinese yuan = $146.28 US dollars a month sounds like real “slave” wages to me.

    Don’t get me wrong, Ming (the Magnificent), America also got rich off the hundreds of years of black slave labor. Thankfully, for the Chinese people, the PRC will not be around that long.

    Ming: “Computers are also made in China. I guess you are right, we are the ‘superior’ one. haha”

    Hey! Stop it, you’re making yourself look stupid.

    China assembles computers that are created and developed with the ideas and concepts from the West. The days when China was a creator and innovator in science and technology was over 500 hundred years ago. The Ming (no connection to you) Dynasty was the last time the Hans reigned supreme in science and technology. Did you know that China invented toilet paper several hundred years before the West?

    Ming: “How is american recession and debt going?”

    Hahaha! Are you stupid?

    Do you think the people who engineered the economic collapse of the Soviet Union (when the Soviets were at their height) are going to let China become a “superpower”?

    Do you think the people who engineered the economic collapse of Japan (when Japan was at its height) – gooogle Plaza Accord – are going to let China monopolize world manufacturing?

    Do you think the people who engineered THIS current “economic crisis” are going to let China keep their little trillion dollars savings?

    Hey! Wake up, Ming, old boy. China was used, abused, and tricked. China has allowed its people to provide “slave” labor for the benefit of Westerners.

    What did it get for this service?

    A country that is the most polluted in the world.

    A country, according to World Bank’s report, only 29 countries’ Gini coefficient are higher than China but 27 are from Latin America and Africa. Only 2 are from Asia and they are Malaysia and Philippines. What a grim situation! (you may have to research what is a Gini coefficient)

    The only country in the world where women commit suicide more than the men.

    Ming, you and Kai use this blog to blow smoke out your asses. If you really want to practice your English and joust with the “white boys,” check out some web sights that are truly anti-China.

    cmfeirs, myself, and others have a respect for China and the Chinese people but that does not mean we will lick up their vomit.

    It would be nice to debate solutions to China’s problems but first there must be a recognition of the problems.

    Well, must stop here or I’ll end up like that other windbag.

    • http://cnreviews.com Kai

      Well, must stop here or I’ll end up like that other windbag.

      LoL, too late!

    • Ming

      Is ok, Fred, When China buy out your country, I promised to give you a 1000 yuan job as a cleaner. I will also give your wife a 1000 yuan to lick my balls.

      We Chinese are more compassionate then you white people. Dont worry, we wont make you work for free. We will pay you.

      PS: if you want a war of words on “invention by time line”, then I guess Chinese are the one who make rockets, missiles, all paper related products, print press, and compass. Which mean all after invention that use these technology are “invented” by the Chinese.

      PSS: How is your national debt going? Still at 10 trillion and increasing?

      • Fred

        @Ming (the Magnificent)

        Ming: “I will also give your wife a 1000 yuan to lick my balls.”

        Did you really want to say that? What does my wife have to do with this?

        You and your buddy, Kai, live up to the stereotypes of Chinese men – weak, cowardly, vulgar, and crude.

      • Mike Fish

        So, you admit, China is to BLAME for gun powder, rockets and missles!!!! Ha! So that means guns, modern warfare, the American military inudstrial complex, and all the other things you’ve blamed America for are really…. China’s fault!!! That’s great… you said it yourself.

        • Ming

          No, we invent it, they are the one who use it to kill natives and black people. Is their fault.

          • Mike Fish

            Yeah Ming… China has never made, sold, or used AK-47 knock-offs or cheap land mines in South Asia, Africa, or Central America? Find a rich stable country in the world and its arsenal of weapons are probably American made. Find a poor country suffering from years of rebellion or civial war and its arsenal of weapons is probably Chinese made. China and America are equally violent and barbarous. The pointing fingers and blaming others game is pathetic and ridiculous. It just proves one’s ignorance. Find a country without blood on its hands. Find a people without a history of taking from others. The Han took from the Miao, the Miao took from someone else, who took from someone else. The White Americans took from the Apache, who took from the Navajo, who took from someone else. No group is innocent. If someone’s critcism is full of condecention and bigotry, then ignore it. But if someone’s criticism is from one person to another, why not listen? Why make it a game of “I’m Chinese, Americans are bad, don’t criticize me”? One can give advice without their country of origin mattering, right?

    • Everett

      Jingoistic Wingnut …

  • Fred

    @ Kai & Ming (the Magnificent)

    “Fight Games” isn’t this fun?

    Hahaha!

  • LOLZ

    “Hey! Wake up, Ming, old boy. China was used, abused, and tricked. China has allowed its people to provide “slave” labor for the benefit of Westerners. What did it get for this service? A country that is the most polluted in the world. ”

    Fred it seems that you know very little about China, a country which you say you care for. From a standard of living point of view, by providing “slave labor” to the benefit of westerners China was able to raise its per capita PPP multiple-folds. If you compare fundamental statistics which measures the health of a nation like infant mortality rates, life expectancy, literacy rates, etc. You will find that China has indeed improved remarkably, all thanks to it’s ability to manufacture and export.

    This is exactly why you see so many people “defending” china on the interwebs. Sure, there are hundreds of millions who are living in shitholes in China, but then there are also hundreds of millions of Chinese who used to live in shitholes but now have a house, a car, hot water, heating, telephones, internet, luxuries which self proclaimed “China-lovers” such as yourself take for granted. 1000 RBM per month? In the country side that’s enough to raise a family of 3. Pollution? Please. McDonald hamburgers kill a lot more people around the world by giving them heart attacks than pollution.

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