Chiang Kai-shek’s 10 Time Magazine Covers

These are from the Tiexue post titled: “From his early years to his late years, Chiang Kai-shek actually appeared on the cover of Time magazine ten times”. I have included some links to the contents of each issue of Time magazine that is shown here. I think the English journalism has changed very much since that time.

chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-cover-1927-april-4

Time Magazine – April 4, 1927 – “…rose out of the Sun-set”

chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-cover-1931-october-26

Time Magazine – October 26, 1931 – “He threatened to Whampoa Japan”

chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-cover-1933-december-11

Time Magazine – December 11, 1933 – “He could ride off in six directions”

chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-cover-1936-february-24

Time Magazine – February 24, 2936 – “The Spokesman: ‘One false step — one mistake — will go bang like a firecracker.'”

chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-cover-1936-november-9

Time Magazine – November 9, 1936 – “Good roads, good morals, good bombs are his answer to Japan.”

chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-cover-1938-january-3

Time Magazine – January 3, 1938 – “Any sacrifice should no tbe regarded as too costly.”

chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-cover-1942-june-1

Time Magazine – June 1, 1942 – “Five hard years, but the next is the hardest.”

chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-cover-1945-september-3

Time Magazine – September 3, 1945 – “After eight years of war, the challenges of peace.”

chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-cover-1948-december-6

Time Magazine – December 6, 1948 – “The howitzers could now be heard in Kansas City.”

chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-cover-1955-april-18

Time Magazine – April 18, 1955

Comments from Tiexue:

决战安卡之颠:

If Old Jiang [Chiang] had beaten Old Mao back then, we don’t know if China would have walked the capitalism or imperialism path, but it definitely would have been friendly with America.

zny168:

TMD, who drew Chiang Kai-shek this ugly?

hfghfhftyrf:

Though he was our enemy

he was still an ambitious and formidable [great] man.

看你妹:

History is written by the victors.

zb1250:

Not surprising, Time magazine’s founder Henry Luce was really fond of Chiang Kai-shek. During the civil war, he always stood on the side of the Chiang couple. When he was alive, he vilified/smeared the Chinese Communist Party a lot, strongly supporting Chiang Kai-shek in public opinion. This situation continued all the way until he passed away. Only after he passed away did Time magazine’s views on the Chinese Communist Party become a little more impartial. Take a look at world news history and you’ll know.

guzhiqianhao:

The Chinese people need to be tough…Of course, Old comrade Jiang was, in front of our countrymen, very tough (Northern Expedition), but, why was he, in front of imperial powers, suddenly so weak? Sad!

I really wonder if a time traveler had gone back and told Old Jiang that he would die in the hands of the Communist Party, whether or not that would have made him insist on “securing the inside first to secure the outside.”

香酥脆饼:

All great people! However, in China, the winners are king, and the losers are nothing!

我要捐钱造航母:

What is Time about? Is it any regular [unimportant] magazine you find in the news stand?

阶级工具:

As his age got older, the drive/vigor in his eyes gradually disappeared!

123457788:

Under Chiang’s rule, the best China could have become would be today’s Philippines or Indonesia. The vast majority of netizens probably would not have the opportunity to go online to express their opinions, but rather be working in developed or slightly-developed countries. Of course, China would still be ranked first for the number of prostitutes.

qgp2ooo:

Old Chiang was indeed charismatic. Too bad he had so many problems when he was in power, and in the end lost his own country. No matter how charismatic he was, he then would be reduced to the joke people share over tea.

月光云海:

Americans liked his wife more than they liked him.

brucewayne:

The criminal [Chiang Kai Shek] of a people [the Chinese] can get on the cover of Time magazine? I really don’t know what this bunch of pigs [Time] are thinking!

wyvernpeng:

Even if Old Chiang won the civil war, America would not necessarily support China becoming a strong and independent country.

Moreover, the corruption in Old Chiang’s government at the time was not your average corruption.

Just like in the movie: Fight corruption and lose the party, don’t fight and lose the country.

China present shortcomings are admittedly many,

but at least it is an independent sovereign country,

unlike the gaolibangzi and Japanese devils,

who must care about what Americans think whenever doing anything.

lucky_zzp:

America was very satisfied with his anti-Communism performance, so they were rewarding him [with the Time covers?]
Moreover, it is just a foreign periodical only. It is just another country’s mainstream values, it doesn’t really mean anything.

神父也色:

Political issue , although had Old Chiang’s regime controlled mainland China, then there should have been 60 years of development, and not 30 years of reform and opening up, and then nearly 30 years of rapid economic growth. Our lives have improved, but if what would it be like had we had another 30 years? Different people have different opinions/see things differently, right?

lq108t:

He is not our enemy, only our political opponent. There is a difference between these two, and we cannot use the past political perspective to look at the issue.

无真子:

Bullshit winner takes all theory, history has become a conspiracy, what he represented were the interests of the minority officials, colonial imperialists, and the land-owners, whereas what Mao Zedong represented were the interests majority workers, landless, and the proletariat, so Baldy being defeated and fleeing after having so many advantages was not an accident, but an inevitability.

leidoulei:

History has truly had a hard time defining Old Chiang, sigh.

戈壁儿女:

This, on one hand, shows that China has always been an important power in the world, that America has always placed great importance on the changes in China; on the other hand, it also shows that Chiang Kai-shek is worthy of being a generation’s great person, also recording the rise and fall of the Chiang Dynasty, worthy of people’s reflection and consideration.

What do you think of Chiang Kai-shek? Did he deserve to appear on so many Time magazine covers?

http://www.chinasmack.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/chiang-kai-shek-time-magazine-covers.JPG
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  • Afrinese.

    great man.
    has done a lot for the people of china.

    • aquadraht

      yes, like cooking political adversaries in locomotives. Nice person, indeed ..

      • http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4080/catkick.gif PUSAN PLAYA

        Yes, lets shed a tear for all the dead Commies and terrorists, lets give Osama Bin Laden the Nobel Peace Prize and suck the cock of Mao’s slowly rotting corpse, victory to the proletariat!

        Chiang’s greatest failure was that he didn’t kill enough Commies, not that he killed too many.

        • aquadraht

          Stupid and primitive people love killing. In fact, Jiang Jieshi made a grave mistake when betraying the alliance with the CCP, mass murdering communists as well as left-wing Guomindang people.

          Had he instead continued unifying the country, wiping out warlords such as the Shanghai triands, childfucking Ma and other nice persons he was depending on in the course of actions, the Japanese would have thought twice before attacking or would have received ways more bloodier noses.

          Without the civil war Jiang Jieshi unleashed in 1927, the CCP would never have come to power, Mao Zedong would have remained a low-influence rural agitator, and a Komintern-led central committee would have maintained the alliance with the KMT as Stalin, who highly valued Jiang Jieshi, had wanted all time.

          I always thought that the common prejudice about Koreans being a bit – let’s put it politely, simple – were just a prejudice. You make me suspect it might be an observation, sometimes.

          Peace and harmony, a^2

  • laowaixian

    I AM BAAAAACK!!!!!!!!!!!!
    ARE YOU SURE THIS IS CHIANG KAI SHEK??????
    LOOKS LIKE A UIGHUR FROM XINJIANG PROVINCE.DIDNT KNOW MR CHIANG`S DESCENDANTS WERE FROM THERE

    THE WORST TOPIC OF THE YEAR

  • Sebz

    If Jiang would have won the civil war the mainland could be as much developed as taiwan is now. Not to mention preserving its colourful culture.

    • beowulf

      you are dreaming. Develop mainland china and develop the small and already developed (japanese) island taiwan are two different things.

      • Josh

        Yeah but it certainly didn’t help that Mao decided to wage war on thought.

      • J

        Hahahahahaha . . . have you ever seen “Japanese developed Taiwan”? I have. Make sure you know what you’re talking about please.

    • Shmacka

      If Chiang won the civil war. Korean and Vietman would have been the Chinese War.

  • http://www.chinasmack.com Joe

    The West had hard time coping with the question of “How we lost China?” Especially considering how much money that was poured into the Nationalist Regime. Chang too didn’t turn out to be the savior they were hoping for.

    • http://www.killerjo.net MAOCUNT

      Harry S.Truman is also to be blamed. General Chennault and many Chinese leaders repeatedly tell the Truman administration to change their ways of sending aid. Instead of sending it directly to the Nationalist gov (aka H.H Kung) with no one checking, appointed someone trustworthy (either Chinese or American) to check the delivery process. Yet, Truman never listened.

      Also, Chiang wouldve wiped out the communists back in like 1946. But just before he is going to wiped them out, Truman sent a message telling him to stop before Manchuria(to please the Soviets) or he is going to stop sending American Aid.

      Roosevelt was an effective president, not so much Truman. If you think about it, the guy really leave the communists horde run loose. Half of Europe (poor valiant Poland), China and bizzilion countries in the world fell before the communists when he is leading the Western Allies.

      • Mike

        I knew the Americans were going to be blamed for this somehow. Always the Americans are responsible for something that went wrong in China. It is very sad to me that the people in China can not look at theirselves honestly and work forward to improve. Why can’t chinese people see how much China has grown?

      • http://www.killerjo.net MAOCUNT

        Mike,

        I don’t think you get what I am hinting at. I am not talking about Americans losing “the Chinese civil war” but rather “Why the fuck American aid were never used effectively in the civil war”. When million of American taxpayers’ money is wasted by “Cash my check (aka. Chiang Kai Shek)”, it is no longer just “China’s prob” but America’s as well.

        There is a fcken reason why America sent aid to Nationalist China. They want to use it as a detergent against the Soviets. Well, they failed, thanks to bad policies. B4 you know it, Communist hordes is running rampart around the world (and plz dun say this is not Americans’ prob when we spent 60+ years fighting them). Even the moment, when Kim Il Sung attacked south Korea, when Mao is marching his PVA across Yalu River, when Stalin is preparing his nukes, Truman still think peace is possible. There is a reason why Truman have a 22% approval rating when he left office and why the UN forces start to turn the tides in Korea after he left office. Think about the countless unnecessary lives lost and how the better judgment of “one man” can saved them.

        (Now I am not saying Truman is a bad guy, but he is not the kind of man that can deal with Stalin. He simply is too peace loving and doesn’t understand there are really some ppl in the world that are really bend on world domination. We are honestly lucky that Stalin went to hell in 1953 becuz if he haven’t, god knows what happen.)

        • JoAnne Braley

          MAOCUNT, I do not like your name, but I think you know more than I do. I’m searching the truth. My father in military fighting Japanese, and my “sister in the convent” her father General with Chaing Kai-Shek. We all loved Chaing. We hated Mao. Well, now that we are trading with China, history is being rewritten. I know from being there, that Chaing was a good man. I just read “Shanghai Girls,” a novel. In there it is said Chaing took the money and ran to Taiwan. That is not true. Of course he wanted money for his army, and we had to fight communism, but something went wrong. He lost the civil war and HAD to go to Taiwan. Now, they want to be part of China (or are, for all I now) and think of him as Hitler…This is so wrong. What can we do about it, and how can I find the truth. I guess go to the library and look up things. Jo in Texas

          • MAOCUNT

            JoAnne,

            I might offended you but I must say despite everything, Chiang is still a tyrant, but simply not as bad as Mao. Taiwan is an example of how bitter Chiang can be, he did make alot of people “vanished”, natives as well as his fellow Chinese officers. But unlike Mao, Chiang do have his contributions as he promoted the educational system and never develop bittiness on intellectuals (unlike Mao, who simply massacred a few generations of smart people in China). I think there is really nothing we can do because the truth is Chiang really did kill alot of people, but i disagree with many Pan-Green Taiwanese’s version as Chiang didn’t target Taiwanese on purpose. He is simply targeting everyone and single person that may threaten his authority, and many democratic country practiced white terror during that time due to the Communist threat(I.E South Korea). And certainly without him, many Taiwanese of his days wouldn’t received proper education they received. (Note that Imperial Japan discrimminate Taiwanese on receiving equal education but Chiang do not)

  • 农民

    chiang kai shek is demonised by the communist regime.in the heads of our mainlanders,chiang was a devil.strictly speaking,chiang and his troops were enemies to so called liberation army,but not to the people.chiang’s mediocrity made him certain to fail.he was a looser.we chinese should not consider him a great person,nor a bandit.that’s my comment.

  • pooying

    Mrs Shek, Soong Mai-ling, said that “The only thing Oriental about me is my face.”

    I bet her mimsie was oriental.

  • http://kvaadk.livejournal.com KVAADK

    My uncle was a writer and met Chaing Kai-shek once. He liked him as a man. But I do not think we in America understood then — or understand now — the conflicts and issues with which the Chinese people contend. We were never in a position to assess the clash of values that led to his ouster. Communication is possible these days at levels unimagined 60 — or even 30 — years ago. But I think mutual comprehension remains as elusive as ever.

    • Mike

      KVAADK, I agree. The mulit-layers of the chinese culture are difficult for us in America to understand. I read the postings and am amazed at the different comment aimed at each other. Very hard for me to understand the barbs shot at one another.

  • Yin

    Throughout its history, China has only ever had two types of imperial dynasties: dynasties founded by (or with the indispensable help of) foreign warriors, and dynasties founded by peasant rebels. Neither characterized Chiang and the KMT.

    It’s simple: despite all the trash talk, urban Chinese don’t fight, or at least don’t fight very well. If you want to rule China, either hire a foreign army, or attract the tough inland peasants to your cause.

    • aquadraht

      I fail to see that the National Revolutionary Army fought that badly during the war with Japan though they were inferior by equipment, infrastructure, and training level of the soldiers and officers. Even during the civil war, conduct of troops in Jiangshi and Fujian was not at all bad and successful in the end.

      The mistake made was a strategical one driven by Jiang’s conservative views and a miscalculation of powers in the society. When turning against Guomindang left wing and communists he may have increased his factional superiority in the KMT, but also unleashed a civil war forcing him into alliances with the most backward and poisoning parts of the society. That weakened China in the fighting against Japan and gave the communists the chance to grab power, a chance they would not even have longed for without Jiang’s betrayal.

      That’s all not so much about peasants versus urbanites. Wide parts of the 1929 and the 1949 rulers both stemmed from Huangpu Junxiao or out of Wuyi Yundong, not particularly rural phenomena. Only when Jiang Jieshi had driven the originally urban workers and urban intellectuals based communists and leftwingers to the countryside, where the pursued met an overexploited and unruly peasantry, he lighted the fuse to blow away his government.

  • GermanChinese

    Mao and the Party have won against Chiang and the KMT because “Socialism with Chinese characteristics” is superior. And because of this, China will win again the US and it’s European, Japanese and Korean servents.

  • http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,755858-2,00.html Sumo

    Reading thru the old articles is quite interesting. In the February 24, 1936 magazine, an article titled ‘EASTERN ASIA: Soviets v. Empires’ says:

    “Mr. Henry Pu Yi,” is the descendant of Manchu Lords who marched from Manchuria to conquer China three centuries ago. Today he is a Japanese puppet…

    Amazing how right the authors had it!

  • Hongjian

    [quote]Under Chiang’s rule, the best China could have become would be today’s Philippines or Indonesia. The vast majority of netizens probably would not have the opportunity to go online to express their opinions, but rather be working in developed or slightly-developed countries. Of course, China would still be ranked first for the number of prostitutes.[/quote]

    [quote]China present shortcomings are admittedly many,

    but at least it is an independent sovereign country,

    unlike the gaolibangzi and Japanese devils,

    who must care about what Americans think whenever doing anything.[/quote]

    truth has been told.

    The 30 years of famine, insanity and murder under Mao’s lunatic regime sure was worth the historical achievement of sovereignty and independence in retrospect.
    Just like the mass-killings and book-burnings of Qin Shihuang were worth his idea, his concept of an united China, that endured 2500 years of history.

    In history, there’re always times, when there is a cruel, machiavellian price to pay, to trade in for something larger than life.

    Nontheless, Lord General Jiang Jieshi was an extraordinary man of his time. But he and his strange sense of ‘soldier’s honour’ was no match for the ruthless cleverness of an devious country-bumpkin like Mao.
    And in China, only the strongest and most ruthless emperor receives the mandate of heaven, and gets the right to rule all rivers and mountains under the heaven…

  • J

    How would China see him if he had won?

    Corruption has been the biggest problem in Cihna for a VERY long time now. Not present, not during Chiang Kai-shek’s time, but way before Chiang’s time.

    I find it funny how some of the Chinese consider him the “enemy” even though he helped defeat China’s true enemy, Japan.

  • GermanChinese

    He was forced to end the fight against the communists and defend China against Japan by his own men.

    But well, he was at least much better than Wang Jingwei.

  • dim mak

    If Japan hadn’t attacked from the North, the KMT would’ve come out on top eventually. Before the civil war broke out the KMT had numbers, foreign support, AND equipment.

  • some_guy

    He may not have been the greatest man in Chinese history, but he deserves the Chinese’s respect at the very least. I agree with the netizen who said he was a political opponent, and not an enemy.

    I was born and raised a bit in Taiwan, before DPP took total control and spread their 愛台灣 B.S. My school textbooks still had quotes revering the charismatic Chiang Kai-Shek. It’s just a shame that his charisma was not realistic, and it’s a real shame that only the CCP could have helped China become the China today.

    • yuan

      Well obviously Taiwan’s education system failed somewhere in you.

      • 水溶C100

        I was thinking the same thing..

    • kailing Fan

      Probably he wasn’t educated in Taiwan, but in the Republic of China… This is like the Bermuda Triangle, weird things hapen there, countries with many names…

  • Indy

    The mention of “Time” publisher Luce got it close to the mark. Luce believed that the ultimate destiny of the United States was to bring Christianity to China. Thus, he used his magazine to push Chiang Kai-Shek and vilify anything accomplished by the Communists (since they are ‘godless’).

  • laowaixian

    HI I AM BAAAAAACK!!!!!!!!!!!!
    want to really know a great man? kim jong il is a great man, and he is still alive for updates

  • Papito

    Where is Yan Xishan when you need him?

    • laowaixian

      who is yan xishan? sorry for my ignorance

    • http://yanxishan.wordpress.com/ Yan Xishan

      Where is Yan Xishan? Where he always is, holding down Shanxi.

      But yes, this post is indeed relevant to my interests. First, I must note that Jiang Jieshi is not the only Chinese warlord/political leader to score a Time magazine cover. The proof that Luce love goes in many directions is here:

      http://yanxishan.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/waiting-for-glory/

      As for the generalissimo, for now let me just say this. Do not–I repeat DO NOT-—fuck with Vinegar Joe. That Yankee SOB will talk shit behind your back, talk smack about your wife, and even write witty/dirty poems about you. Word to the wise, it is hard to overcome that legacy.

  • Ming

    What we see here, is not the losser of the Chinese civil war, but lonilness.

    • Zhegezhege

      Haha, again with the loneliness line. You’re aware that you’re also implicating yourself, right? Don’t be so merciless, Ming.

  • LoveChina

    Chiang is a true HERO of China.
    Unfortunately, Americans like Marshall at those times are so short-sighted. They Lost China and let CCP and Russian took China, and China become the enemy of US. They learned the lesson just a year or two leter in Korea.

  • formosa samosa

    Apart from civil war,has the PLA won anything?

    (and dont count 4th june killings, folks.)

    • Hongjian

      Korean War.

      Great Success.

      • Goodness

        That was a tie. Only you would call a tie a great success.

        • Hongjian

          why a tie?
          The Chinese achieved what they wanted in the beginning of the war: to push the US/UN forces away from the Chinese Border on the Yalu-River and out of North Korea, beyond the 38 degree.
          They didnt even want to push them out of the entire Korea, or even to assist the Norks in conquering the entire peninsula.

          The US couldnt get what they wanted: The destruction of the communists and the conquering of the north by the south.

          • Goodness

            The UN forces would have left on their own if the North fell regardless of China. If you fight and die for something that you would have had all along then you gain nothing. The US didn’t get the North Koreans to surrender officially like the Japanese. Hence tie.

          • Hongjian

            No. Mao didnt want to assist the North Koreans against anything. He already prepared 6 divisions of veteran PLA troops to invade Taiwan, at the time the North Koreans invaded southwards.
            Too bad just, that the Norks sucked dick at Warfighting and got pushed back to the Yalu-River and on the brink of destruction. A destroyed North Korea means that the US and a US-friendly puppet will have its troops directly standing at the Chinese Border, near the agricultural granaries of the Helongjiang-region, which is pretty much a Sword of Damocles, hanging above China’s very existence.

            So Mao just HAD to push the US and SK out of North Korea and establish an own puppet state, to act as a buffer against real American Aggression. So, no wonder why General FagArthur was so enraged at his loss in Korea and wanted to attack every chinese city with hundreds of nukes.

            China won, obviously. US lost hard time. Kim Jong Il and his provocations against SK, Japan and the US (with clandestine chinese support) just proves it pretty much. North Korea is China’s creation. A shield against US supremacy on the peninsula.

          • Hongjian

            @Goodness

            You dont seem to know about the plans of MacArthur to spread the War into Chinese territory, before the PVA/PLA entered the War?

            The whole point of the Korean War and the entire MacArthur doctrine in Asia, including the rebuilding of Japan (and the protection of the War-Criminals of Unit 731 before the Tokyo Trails), was exactly to establish an far-east base of operation to destroy communism in Asia. So, the korean war that was started by the north, was actually a well-received reason for the US and their puppet SK to get their plan in motion of driving communism out of that region.

          • Goodness

            The North Koreans actually did pretty good until the US its footing set. Mao didn’t have to do anything. Again the US wasn’t going into China. China’s entry into the war was a net negative. By helping the North Korean regime survive, they helped necessitate Americas presence in the Pacific in the long run. North Korea is the only reason there is an Osan Airbase. Furthermore the presence of communist North Korea is what accelerated Americas buildup of the aircraft carrier Japan. The Chinese brought this on themselves.

          • Hongjian

            Yeah. Of course the US had to react against the North Koreans by accelerating their buildup in the Western Pacific, but at least these facts are less bad than to have US/SK armoured divisions standing at the Yalu, always ready to invade, just like the Soviet Union during the times of bad sino-russian relationship.
            The US would’ve fortified their holding in Asia regardless of the existence of North Korea.

            The existence of North Korea is more positive than negative to China, since they have a useful proxy, they wouldnt have if the US would have wiped them out.

          • Goodness

            MacArthur was SUBORDINATE to Truman. Truman wasn’t going to go into China. Truman wanted to concentrate on domestic matters. Some of MacArthurs bluster is what helped him get canned.

            Tanks along the Yalu river? LOL! Your just making this stuff up now.

          • Hongjian

            Yeah, Truman stopped MacArthur. Practically, he saved China from a nuclear holocasut with it as well.
            But If there wasnt a Truman, who is considered a weakling and coward by the military, then MacArthur would have stomped right into chinese soil.
            And it’s never good to rely on the mercy and/or stupidity/cowardice of your adversary’s leadership.

            Yeah. Tanks along the Yalu River. Along with massive Air-support and Artillery from both Ground and Sea. You heard right.
            China was able to cross the Yalu without the proper machinery and only with badly equipped Light Infantry Divisions. the resourceful americans wouldnt even spend a second of thought into how to cross that River…
            The intimidating effects of an groundbased American/NATO force on the border to China ALONG with the soviet threat from the north would be uninmaginable.

            Nowadays, there is only the threat from the sea and air for China. But without north korea as buffer state, there’s also a threat from the land.

      • Goodness

        1 – North Korea is a Soviet creation not a Chinese one. Kim Il Sung was closer to the Russians then the Chinese.

        2 – If Mao was so concerned with Chinese sovereignty, why didn’t he try to take back Hong Kang or Taiwan?

        • Hongjian

          1.
          Yeah, initially North Korea was a Soviet creation. But they would have been wiped out, if not for the Chinese perticipation.
          The reluctancy of Stalin to provide support to the PVA in Korea was a clear signal: They have already prepared to lose their ‘colony’ and also didnt want China to gain anything from it.

          2.
          Mao WAS concerned about the sovereignty of China. Like said, he already prepared 6 fresh, civil-war expierienced, divisions + captured KMT landing shps to invade Taiwan, when the US was focussed on the North Korean invasion. Too bad just, that the Norks, who did well up until Seoul, got slaughtered by the American military power. Taiwan’s de-facto independence was actually a lucky gain from the Korean War, when Mao had to commit his Taiwan invasion-forces and his own and only mentally-sane son into the war with the US and SK.
          Hongkong was a different thing. Mao was a clever tactician in the field of foreign policy and didnt want to start a quarrel with GB on this frontier as well. Also, he knew that Xianggang was just leased for 150 years and will automatically return to China. So why spend valuable troops for something you can get for free?

          • Goodness

            1.
            The end of the communist regime in North Korea is a good thing. The Soviets did provide guns, Migs, and tanks.

            2.
            Assuming what you wrote is true, the best time to invade Taiwan would have been when the US was preoccupied in Korea. Mao screwed up. Your telling me that Mao pulled the plug on unification with Taiwan to defend against a threat that didn’t exist?

            3.
            Hongjian you wrote “So why spend valuable troops for something you can get for free?”
            -looking at Chinese tactics , Chinese troops are anything but valuable. They are cannon fodder.

          • Hongjian

            1. Maybe it’s a good thing to you, but surely not for China, since either millions of refugees will flood the nearby provinces or SK (US in disguise) will have some nice military bases along the Yalu.
            The Soviets provided MiGs and Tanks for the North Koreans. Yes. But for the Chinese? Not really. Stalin only allowed their pilots to provide air-cover in the near of the Yalu-River, but anything beyond that, was practically in american air-domain.
            The PVA in Korea fought only with captured japanese and KMT equipment. No, or only very very limited soviet weaponary was distributed to the Chinese. Though the US 1st Cavalary Division, who were overrun by the initial Chinese attack, where mocked as ‘quartermaster of the reds’, by their american comrades, since they abbandoned all their weapons and vehicles and fleed like the cowards they were.

            2. Yeah. Mao screwed up, since he thought that North Korea would win and the whole matter could solve itself with the support of the mighty Soviet Union in all its glory. But in reality, they couldnt.
            but he knew that Taiwan, who lost lost of the american support at that time, wasnt able to mount any attacks on chinese soil, but the south koreans and americans sure could. So he just set the priorities right in that case. whats the point of losing whole Manchuria to the US, just for one renegade island?

            3. It seems that you know nothing of the Chinese tactics. Let me cite Wikishit for you, backed by sources of various Military Academies and Historians:

            “Similar to Europeans during the Mongol invasions, UN forces believed that Chinese victories were due to simple human wave tactics. In fact, Chinese forces used rapid attacks on the flanks and rear and infiltration behind UN lines to give the appearance of vast hordes. This, of course, was augmented by the Chinese tactic of maximizing their forces for the attack, ensuring a large local numerical superiority over their opponent.[6][7] The initial Chinese victory along the Yalu River was a great morale booster for the PVA and the first Chinese victory over the West in modern times. However, by late 1951, superior UN firepower and Chinese meatgrinder tactics had forced a stalemate. The North Koreans that invaded in 1950 had been much better supplied and armed by the Soviets than the Chinese Army had been. The main arms of the PVA were captured Japanese and KMT arms,[8]

            Historian and Korean War veteran Bevin Alexander had this to say about Chinese tactics in his book How Wars Are Won:

            “The Chinese had no air power and were armed only with rifles, machineguns, hand grenades, and mortars. Against the much more heavily armed Americans, they adapted a technique they had used against the Nationalists in the Chinese civil war of 1946–49. The Chinese generally attacked at night and tried to close in on a small troop position — generally a platoon — and then attacked it with local superiority in numbers. The usual method was to infiltrate small units, from a platoon of fifty men to a company of 200, split into separate detachments. While one team cut off the escape route of the Americans, the others struck both the front and the flanks in concerted assaults. The attacks continued on all sides until the defenders were destroyed or forced to withdraw. The Chinese then crept forward to the open flank of the next platoon position, and repeated the tactics.”

            Roy Appleman further clarified the initial Chines tactics as:

            “In the First Phase Offensive, highly skilled enemy light infantry troops had carried out the Chinese attacks, generally unaided by any weapons larger than mortars. Their attacks had demonstrated that the Chinese were well-trained disciplined fire fighters, and particularly adept at night fighting. They were masters of the art of camouflage. Their patrols were remarkably successful in locating the positions of the U.N. forces. They planned their attacks to get in the rear of these forces, cut them off from their escape and supply roads, and then send in frontal and flanking attacks to precipitate the battle. They also employed a tactic which they termed Hachi Shiki, which was a V-formation into which they allowed enemy forces to move; the sides of the V then closed around their enemy while another force moved below the mouth of the V to engage any forces attempting to relieve the trapped unit. Such were the tactics the Chinese used with great success at Onjong, Unsan, and Ch’osan, but with only partial success at Pakch’on and the Ch’ongch’on bridgehead.”[9]

            Historian Bruce Cumings noted that when Chinese soldiers and officers saw how Americans fought the war, they were surprised by how freely the Americans would resort to what they considered to be excessive and unnecessary force. One Chinese soldier stated that if the Americans encountered a single sniper hiding in a village or house, they would invariably call in massive artillery and air attacks, destroying the entire village and killing everyone in it. He asked, “Why do they do this instead of simply sending in soldiers to kill the sniper?” American superiority in military hardware had profound consequences for the Korean people on the peninsula as well as the soldiers fighting the war.”

            Human wave tactics were actually invented by the Japanese in WWII. Called ‘Banzai-Charge’. Chinese Communist troops never used these tactics. They where born guerrilla fighters after all.
            Only because the West lost to racially inferior people, they would always claim that they where defeated by ‘hordes’ and by ‘human waves, made of mindless drones’, when it in fact wasnt.

            pretty lame.

          • Goodness

            Hongjin said “either millions of refugees will flood the nearby provinces or SK

            1.
            Millions of refugees would not have gone into China because Korea, their homeland, would have been united. There was no SK or NK back then, there was only K.

            2.
            Again The US had no intention of going into China. If the US wanted to go into China then MacArthur would never have been removed. All that stuff you wrote in number 2 is just you trying to use hindsight to rationalize everything. Like saying a football team went 0 and 15 not because they sucked, but because the wanted the top draft pick all along. They meant to suck! There is no truth to your words. Only a blind adoration to a mythical genius that never existed.

            Hongjin said “Let me cite Wikishit for you”

            3.
            You refer to Wikipedia as sh!t then plagiarizing whole sections of it to make your point. Very lame.

    • Hongjian

      Also the Sino-Indian War in 1962.

      Chinese border units repelling the Indian assaults and conquering their regions.

      The numerous Border Wars with the Soviet Union where also pretty successful for China.

      • Mike Fish

        Anyone else notice that Hongjian is a pompous blowhard asshole? He probably sits in his room all day recreating battles with miniatures. Nothing wrong with battles and miniatures… just the fact he has to do it alone and all the other war gamer people think he’s a total prick says something. The winner in this argument is clear, unlike the Korean war’s outcome. Jones totally won this argument and Red Sword? is an armchair general and all around cunt. War’s are fought because of insecure, anonymous, small penised assholes like him who only know to how to pick fights but can neither fight them or finish them. Bragging on remote parts of military history and hardware as if he has anything to do with them is just nuts.

        • http://www.cnreviews.com Kai

          I think you’re taking Hongjian too seriously. He actually has some rather legendary moments.

          • Mike Fish

            I imagine he’s the only one who takes himself seriously. He and a few others on here think history is a Michael Bay movie.

    • J. Li

      The Sino-Indian War, India was defeated in just a month. Then the Paracel Islands Conflict with Vietnam, the Vietnamese navy was defeated, now those islands belong to China. Maybe you can do a little research before you try to diss any country.

  • xxxxx

    You guys are debating over the technicalities of the war while totally ignoring the big picture. There is such thing called just cause. A just cause is invincible. If you are fighting for justice, you will eventually win. On the other hand, if you are on the wrong side of the history you will eventually lose no matter how smarter or how strong you are at the beginning. The history tells us victors often represent the just force of the time. The same applies to Mao and Jiang. Mao won because he served the interest of the poor peasants who formed the majority of the population of the China at the time.

    • whichone

      Call me a cynic but I think often the victorious become “just” momentarily after they defeat their enemy and begin writing history.

      On the otherhand I do believe there is such a thing as “popular cause”, and belligerent with the support of the people have a better shot at winning than not. However that is far from just. As the cliche goes one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist…one person’s trash is another’s treasure…never run with scissors in your pants…

      • aquadraht

        Whichone: You surely have a point. Obtaining and dominating historiography clearly is a business of the victors. Yet we are living in a pluralistic world. Not everyone (to say the least) is siding with Mao. And China is opening to the outside world. Today, Jiang Jieshi is considered much more mildly even in the PRC than immediately after the civil war. On the other hand, he isn’t glorified anymore the way he was during cold war. Similarly, glorification as well as demonizing of Mao Zedong is waning. Let us try to get a clearer picture of history aside from fanaticism of cold war.

  • 先總統 蔣公

    中國國民黨萬歲!

    • True Patriot

      中華民國 千秋萬世

      三民主義 統一中國

    • KMT Guy

      說的好!

  • Observer

    Truman should have totally not pussied out of bombing Mao. He had the chance, he could have taken out most of the Communist Army which would have allowed Chiang Kai-Shek to become the leader. Of course, the downside was dropping nuclear bombs on most of Manchuria. Which really doesn’t hit the army so much as the locals…

    • Hongjian

      Finally a real man on this faggy site!!!!

      DINGDINGDING!

      Obama is such a weakling… chicken soup and Chinese Merlot for state dinner?

      Back in the good ole days, real men raise toasts with Maotai, the 150-proof liquor, and joked about how many millions of lives can be scarified in a nuke exchange with the Soviet Union.

      Chinese steak and Stevie Wonder at state dinner for Obama nowadays… Did someone order milk?

      • Teacher in China

        “real men … joked about how many millions of lives can be scarified in a nuke exchange with the Soviet Union.”

        So a “real man”, according to your definition, is a sociopath that attaches no value to human life whatsoever. The more you post on this here “faggy site”, the less I like you. Keep it up, sport, let’s see your true colours.

        • Inst

          If you read his other posts it’ll be pretty obvious he’s being sarcastic.

          • Alikese

            You can tell he’s being sarcastic because no one, no one, would drink Chinese red wine.

          • Teacher in China

            Really? Hm, never got that impression. Guess I need to brush up on my reading skillz…

        • Hongjian

          “no one, would drink Chinese red wine.”

          ;_;

          you make all the honourable chinese vintner cry with such a general assumption.

          I personally felt that “Yunnan Red”, some tibetan wine (I forgot the name) and “Chateau Changyu” are pretty good.

          • Voyager

            haha… “Chateau Changyu” …

            Hongjian..props to your posts in the debates with Jones & Goodness. Word! on a lot of the shit that u said man.

            Jones’ got some gd perspectives also …Goodness on the other hand was biased shit.

            yall got some great posts tho….. great debate.

  • 先總統 蔣公

    消滅萬惡共匪!
    解救大陸同胞!

    還我河山!

    • KMT Guy

      一定要反攻大陸!

  • 蔣故總統 經國先生

    三民主義統一中國
    自由民主統一中國

    消滅台獨
    中華民國萬歲!

    • KMT Guy

      中華民國萬歲!

  • 先總統 蔣公

    萬歲!
    萬萬歲!

    誰搞台獨, 我搞他的腦袋

  • fireworks

    chiang-kai-shek lost the Chinese civil war is because he was politically and militarily weaken by the WW2 and the Japanese. He also rank out of money and military hardware and saved his butt by relocating to Taiwan.

    chiang-kai-shek could have been a legend but he is best remembered for the guy who lost China.

    Mao is best remembered for the guy who unify China and later paved the way for HK and Macao to return to Chinese sovereignty.

  • http://h5.com hello jeloo

    only reason why mao survived the long march was because stalin saved his ass by having chiang ching kuo as hostage in russia. chiang kai shek had some std that made him infertile. so ching kuo was his only heir. chiang kai shek let his feeling take over.. mao was devious and was way better at manipulating people than chiang kai shek without stalin backing mao up he wouldnt have won.. red china = soviet creation. but soviets are now behind china. my dads good friend is zhang xue liang’s 6th brother. and only reason why zhang xue liang fucked over chiang is because mao promised him he can have a spot in his regime but after he found out it mao was fucking with him he let him go.. .japanese killed 300,000 in nanjing. mao killed indirectly killed 50-70 mil. ba guo lian jun 8 powers fued china bad. why doesnt the red china say fk you to them why doesnt red china fk mao for killing so much people.

    • aquadraht

      That story about Jiang Jingguo allegedly having been held hostage in the USSR is absolute crap. Jiang Jingguo indeed lived in the USSR between 1925 and 1937, he accomplished his studies, married a Byelorussion wife having two children, and eventually led a steel factory. He returned to China in 1937 in order to take part in the war against Japan.

      There is not a single source that he was held in the USSR against his own will (that has been alleged in the incredibly Mao the unknown story drivel, yet without any scholarly evidence). Much less is there any indication that Jiang Jieshi was influenced by the presence of his son in the USSR. During that period, he broke up the alliance with the communists, killed at least tens if not hundreds of thousands of them without any grace for women, children, or civilian bystanders in general. And he only stopped civil war with the communists when forced by his own generals. Hardly the behaviour of somebody under pressure not to go after the Commies.

      Not only that Stalin (who even were not in full control of the USSR prior to 1931) cared wet shit about any foreign ruler massacring communists, it is completely ridiculus that Jiang Jieshi should have saved Mao on demand of the USSR. Mao was the man who had acted against Komintern orders even before 1927 much more after, when the structures of the CCP were smashed, the militants scattered, and only Mao and his followers were building up new strongholds in the rural areas of Hunan, Jiangxi and Fujian. It was the crushing of the Jiangxi-Fujian Soviet and the start of the long march which made Mao the uncontested leader of the CCP, virtually wiping all USSR or Komintern influence.

      If Jiang would have preserved any CCP and hong gongren nongmin jun people, why not the 2nd Red Army with their much more USSR-compliant leadership? That is all utter bullshit.

      But people seem to like fairy tales.

      • http://h5.com hello jeloo

        yeah like all china men believe mao didnt do anything wrong. living in villas and having heated pools banging nurses and students while the whole country was starving. maybe mao and chiang grandkids should bang each other and have a mao chiang offspring

        • Foreign

          bet you are not chinese

        • aquadraht

          I can’t verify what “all china men” (what about women?) believe. I was not telling about Mao Zedongs rights or wrongs but about the ridiculous fabrication that Jiang Jieshi has been blackmailed by the USSR to save Mao Zedong. There is no historical evidence backing that myth. You are obviously some aging western middleclass cunt having shed tears about Wild Swans and now believing every word of your bible Mao the unknown story. Go on enjoying your yellow press fabrications and live in harmony.

  • http://h5.com hello jeloo

    oh yeah forgot to say how mao kinda killed everyone that helped him zhu de, peng de huai, lin biao, liu shao qi. http://www.youtube.com/watchv=p63xt5AlahY&feature=related

    • aquadraht

      I bet Mao was responsible for bad weather, too

      • Inst

        I’m sure there’s some agricultural improvement project somewhere in China that deleterious effects on the local climate, so, if you wanted to stretch it, sure, go ahead.

  • hoklodude

    To give proper credit, Sun Yat-Sen, KMT and Generalissmo Jiang created the modern era of China scrubbed away from the Manchu led government. However, due to war, political instability and moral decay within the newly form Republican movement, they didn’t reach their goal of unifying all of China and make Beijing the capital.

    The closest Jiang got was to make Nanjing the capital of China. He never got to occupy Zhongnanhai like what Mao did.

    Anyway, its no point debating history as the commies and capitalists are now making money together. Mainland China has opened up to the capitalist and Taiwan has put its money where its mouth is and gone to the mainland with their capital, technology and management expertise. Its a win-win situation for both sides.

    The only prob is North Korea. They need an economic reform like what Deng Xiaoping did to Shenzhen and open up economic development. Things can be stable again in the North and with South Korea.

  • Simon

    some day
    chinese people will have a honorable man as leader again,
    china will be glorious as well as godly,
    because china had good christians doctor sun and general chiang, and they almost made it

  • CK Kher

    Just one easy sentence : Chairman Mao would never would never had the idea of Communist if it wasn’t for the failure of Dr Sun’s political idea. But Dr Sun is definitely not to blame for, and he should be praised for being the pioneer for the reformation of China

    • True Patriot

      Dr. Sun’s political idea is that of the three principles: civic pride and patriotism, economic development and social welfare, democracy and human rights. CCP has been practicing the principle of civic pride and patriotism all along. CCP is now also embracing market based capitalism, promoting economic developments and working on better social welfare system. Premiere Wen Jia Bao public said on CNN last year that China is moving towards democratic reforms and elections. China’s miraculous return to the world’s center stage can be said is a result of returning to Dr. Sun’s political ideals of the Three Principles.

  • Shanghairocks

    “History is written by the victors.” – couldn’t agree more.

  • octavian

    Mao and Chiang were both brutal dictators and moronic. 6 of one, half dozen on another.

  • San Soucri

    The only liars in China are the Chinese.

  • LoveChina

    This Hongjian does not know any real history except the fake “history” taught by the CCP. Don’t bother to argue with him. He could even be a paid 50c.

  • Lolwhat

    Lol dude Hongjian knows what he’s talking about. Truman didn’t want to fight China but Macarthur did.
    Why do you think Macarthur was sacked for INSUBORDINATION?
    Guy wanted to invade China, and wanted the authority to use nukes. Truman had good reason to believe Macarthur would disobey the order so he got taken out.

    Mao may have made some stupid mistakes, but when a loose cannon like MacArthur, who by the way was basically the supreme commander of all the allied east asian assets, publicly states he wouldn’t stop at the yalu. That is a pretty good reason to go to war.

    Alot of you guys always bash mainlanders saying they’re education is false and skewed. You ever think your own American/Canadian textbooks gloss over some periods, hide and skew stuff as well?

    My History professor said it best with: “Back during Tang China, the Chinese were ignorant to the rest of the world, but the rest of the world knew much about China. Nowadays, the West is ignorant of the Chinese but the Chinese know much about the West.”

  • cmfeirs

    give me a break! i am sick and tired of people trying to politically sidestep the disaster that the Mao communist party brought to China. Any foriegner who has been on the subway and seen the tired, longing faces . . . any foreigner who has visited the villages in the countryside and seen the living conditions . . . any foreigner who has witnessed the slave mentalaity of the [peasants in Beijing – – get off you fcking high liberal horse! Speak the truth! this ountry is built on slave labor! the only difference between China and the West is that China truly doesn’t believe in child labor lawas, slavery, prostitution, etc – theyre all acceptable if it akes the nation stronger. What a sad state for humanity when all we equate with progress is economic and military might. This is an equal rebuke for western society as well, but the westerners who have brains and dont see that as an ingrained part of Chinese society PISS ME OFF! Its like i went to sleep to sleep and woke up in the land of the retarded! Stupid people who think theyre smarter than others! the problem througout the world!

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  • Taiwanese

    Chiang Kai Shek deserves to look better. TAIWAN SHALL RISE…

    • KMT Guy

      We shall counterattack against the Mainland!

  • Hongwu Emperor

    ”good roads, good morals and good bombs are his answer to Japan”
    That was epic ;)

    • Alice S

      So much positivity!

  • KMT Guy

    總統 蔣公, 您是人類的救星, 您是世界的偉人總統 蔣公, 您是自由的燈塔, 您是民主的長城內除軍閥, 外抗強鄰, 爲正義而反共, 圖民族之復興蔣公, 蔣公, 您不朽的精神, 永遠領導我們反共必勝, 建國必成, 反共必勝, 建國必成!

    President General Chiang, you are the savior of mankind, you are the greatest person in the whole world.President General Chiang, you are the lighthouse of freedom, you are the Great Wall of democracy.|: Eliminated the warlords, fought foreign aggression, opposed communism for righteousness, to seek the renaissance of our race! :|General Chiang, General Chiang, your everlasting spirit will forever guide us.We shall win against communism, we shall build the nation, we shall win against communism, we shall build the nation!

  • KMT Guy

    蔣總統萬歲!

  • Hongjian

    Vietnam was a fiasco for the PLA. Yes. But in Korea, China achieved its set political goal. And thats everything that matters. China didnt want to assist North Korea, how many times one have to say this?
    Mao believed that North Korea would win by itself and he seriously didnt want to be involved in this shitstorm, but North Korea failed hard and China was in danger…

    citation of Mao at that time:
    “If we allow the U.S. to occupy all of Korea… we must be prepared for the US to declare… war with China”

    So China technically won. Since the US didnt get to occupy all of Korea because China pushed them back, they achieved their ultimate goal. A Korea who isnt entirely dominated by the US.

    What questions are there else in defining who is the fucking victor?

  • Hongjian

    MacArthur planned to nuke China after he realized that he would be pushed out of north korea by the PVA. Before this, he was just an arrogant fucker who didnt even took China seriously and thought that he could swoop into chinese soil and kick Mao in the butt with one swing.

    Obviously he received his bloody nose. By yellow communist subhumans on top of that.
    Serves him right for sparing Japanese War-Criminals from justice in exchange of their sciencetific results from Mengele-styled human experiments with Chinese, Russian and even American POWs and civilians.

  • Hongjian

    China and me arent interested in that shithole of North Korea, or how the ppl are suffering there. So dont come up with that sentimental crap. North Korea is a useful pawn and a useful buffer zone. Thats enough for me and China to rejoice. Norks can starve to death for all I care, as long as their usefulness to China is not compromised.

    And Mac Arthur planned to attack China. Thats a fact. Or else, tell then me why President Truman would’ve stopped him, if he actually didnt want to do anything with China?! Oh right. Truman was a dickhead and idiot, but this doesent explain why he would have kicked MacArthur out of his commanding position of the Asian theatre, if he didnt do anything wrong.
    History books all say that he was kicked because he wanted to spread the war on Chinese territory.

    So learn some history first, before stating crap.

  • Hongjian

    Not the PLA lost to the Japanese, the KMT lost to them.

    PLA = Commies
    KMT’s NRA = Nationalists (the good guys)

    know the difference. It could save your life.

    Also, the NRA was fucking inebt and had shit moral. Officers always had to shoot their own troops to hold them together, forced conscriptions across the entire country, absolutely shit equiptment and training (apart from the German trained 88th Division), inebt leadership, corruption across the entire logistic chain and officer-ranks (sold their rifles to warlords, communists and even to the japanese), sometimes even openly colaborating with the japanese against their own people, etc. pp.

    tl;dr:

    NRA was 90% Utter Shit and 10% Pure Awesome.
    PLA was 100% Badass bearded, Dadao swinging OPERATORS and 100% Witty Fuckers who let other fight their wars. This makes them 200% Awesome.

  • Austere

    So you are called “airborne” loL!

  • aquadraht

    I agree to much of your reasoning. Jiang Jieshi initially earned a lot of merits in defending Sun Zhongshan and winning the KMT much of her influence in China. Subsequently, he became too much inclined to the party’s right wing (fancying Mussolini and his ilk).

    His fundamental mistake was the breakup of the alliance with the communists in 1927. At that time, Chinese Communists were a widely urban movement based on workers and intellectuals, without significant roots in the core of Chinese populace being 95% rural dwellers at that time.

    By massacring the left-wingers, Jiang Jieshi drove them out to the countryside, bringing a new generation of leaders around Mao Zedong, Zhu De and others to power, who created a new strategy of rural insurrection and guerilla warfare proving extremely hard to counter by the central government.

    Jiang only succeeded in dealing a major blow to communist insurrection by ganging up with all the separatist warlords he had fought before for sake of China’s unity. Though he defeated the communists in southeast China in the 1930s, he lost the struggle of creation of modern China while the communists succeeded in saving the insurrection by their heroic though disastrous long march.

    Much of China’s miserable initial performance against the Japanese aggression was due to that failure which led to Xian incident and the renewal of the pre-1927 alliance, in fact a complete bankrupcy of all of Jiang’s intentions.

    Being a traitor to the initial alliance made Jiang a loser of the civil war he unleashed. Without his betrayal the communists would never have had a chance to grab power.

  • heirui

    It’s not just taiwan vs. mainland development… consider N vs S korean (one can’t feed itself, one quite developed with highest broadband penetration in the west); or east vs west germany (yet another struggling communist country, next to one of the most advanced western ones — and the started out the more or less on parity at the end of ww2). I think if you only know “history” as learned in mainland china, you just don’t have enough data…. there are more examples, in many times and places.

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