Chinese Aunties Plaza Dance in Moscow’s Red Square, Reactions

Chinese "aunties" (older middle-aged women) "plaza dancing" at Moscow's Red Quare.

At time of translation, this was the most discussed article of the day on major Chinese web portal NetEase…

From NetEase:

Chinese Aunties Shown Plaza Dancing at Moscow’s Red Square, Bringing Police to the Scene

June 14th, a netizen published photos of Chinese aunties bringing plaza dancing to Moscow’s Red Square. Following Chinese aunties “attacking and occupying” Paris’s Le Louvre with plaza dancing, Moscow’s Red Square has finally “been occupied”, with the Chinese aunties’ plaza dancing bringing Moscow police urgently to the scene.

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Comments from NetEase:

如果会讲理就不可能做5毛 [网易湖南省长沙市雨花区网友]:

They sure are brave, daring to go to a country that has invaded millions of square kilometers of our territory, to their godfathers, to plaza dance. This kind of fearlessness is exactly what is lacking in the South China Sea [refers to the discontent of some netizens with the government’s handling of controversial issues in the South China Sea].

谁老在抢注名字 [西班牙球迷]:

Embarrassing oneself [or all Chinese people] around/throughout the whole world.

Michaelsoct [懂球帝]:

This is China’s image: all our products are low-end, and our tourists can’t behave when abroad, demonstrating no cultivation or upbringing [are ignorant, uncivilized, uncouth].

网易河南省郑州市网友 ip:123.6.*.*:

Our countrymen have already become the entire world’s laughing stock.

dianaross [网易天津市津南区网友]:

Truly TM low! Best to just lack them all up in “standing cages” [an ancient public punishment method similar to a pillory].

网易重庆市网友 ip:113.206.*.*:

A bunch of demons.

女神朵朵 [巴西球迷]:

I hope the Virgin Mary won’t appear in this post.
I sincerely loathe these old women who have nothing better to do.
They never consider other people, being selfish.
Don’t tell me I’m going to be old one day too. Have all of the elderly people in the world who don’t dance gone extinct?
Don’t tell me there’s nothing wrong with letting old people have some fun/be happy. Building one’s happiness on other people’s pain and suffering, that’s the logic of robbers.
I strongly recommend that the country be strict in its enforcement of the law and resolutely fine the people who still create noise at night, and if you can’t, then arrest them, to return to us a quiet and peaceful night.

毛澤東是上班族的大救星 [网易上海市网友]:

As long as you dance without disturbing others, you can dance however you want. The problem right now is that the noise produced by plaza dancing violates the country’s laws and is disturbing the quiet of surrounding residents. That’s selfish, an action that hurts other people’s health for one’s own recreation.

网易四川省乐山市网友 ip:182.139.*.*:

Demons, reveal your true forms!

zz07113 [德国球迷]:

Embarrassing Chinese people throughout the whole world, a bunch of old sluts, would not dancing kill you?

Comments from NetEase:

网易陕西省安康市手机网友 ip:221.11.*.*:

Making fools of themselves, a bunch of country bumpkins.

wwwweixuan [网易北京市手机网友]:

Shameless to the extreme, and yet they think this is something to be proud of.

b1aa9cfc8a1799016c3297d3 [网易内蒙古手机网友]:

The dregs of the Cultural Revolution.

网易江苏省南京市手机网友 ip:122.96.*.*:

Sigh, so embarrassing.

网易广西贵港市手机网友 ip:121.31.*.*:

Losing face around the globe.

网易海南省海口市手机网友 ip:223.198.*.*:

Looking at this rhythm [frequency], it seems like China’s aunties won’t give up until they’ve lost our “national face” [embarrassed the nation] throughout the entire world!

驴儿大的行货 [网易浙江省杭州市手机网友]:

This is worse than chengguan.

网易广东省惠州市手机网友 ip:14.112.*.*:

Embarrassing yourselves in front of the warrior people [Russians], do you want to die?

呀哑吖呸 [巴西球迷]:

If you can’t explain this to the Russian, they just might gun you do with an AK…

网易浙江省温州市手机网友 ip:115.221.*.*:

Aunties! No limit to how low they will go~

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  • Insomnicide

    They’ve finally done it. They’ve invaded Chinese space and now they’re occupying Russian space. Please send help ASAP.

    • mr.wiener

      Dancing aunties are easily startled…but they’ll be back soon, and in greater numbers.

      • Insomnicide

        This is the type of Red Dawn no one expected.

  • Hopefully they left trash and brought babies to p*ss everywhere

    • Rick in China

      That was definitely in the contents of the police call – and why they showed up so quickly..

  • bujiebuke

    Move over panda bears! I bring you Chinese aunties, the new PRC diplomats for the 21st century. Equally cuddly and unpredictable in temperament, but with more sass and “I don’t give a fuck about your rules”.

    • Kai

      I dunno about cuddly…

      • bujiebuke

        Absolutely they’re huggable. Treat them like any middle-aged women; complement on their garish flowery dress, cheap lavender perfume, and oversized jewelry.

        Joking. I know what your referring to – Chinese aunties can be pretty terrifying.

    • Insomnicide

      They’re not very diplomatic…

      • bujiebuke

        I know. I was writing with a bit of irony in that last sentence.

  • Lol go auntie go! Dancing in the squares might be one of the few “cultural”
    things from communism that still exists in China. Even more, together with the aunties practicing tai qi I find them as a very aesthetic and colorful complement to those beautiful green places that unfortunately have a pale grey tone thanks to the pollution… These aunties are adorable, au contraire to their younger counterpart which all they do is arrive, spend, take a selfie and leave. Plus, what’s wrong with dancing? can’t you just see it that way?

    They let you be subnormal with your 5″ screen all day, why don’t you like it when they dance?

    For me I’d love to see aunties dancing everywhere, and not a whole bunch of 3G dependents sitting in silence

    • Kai

      Hah, great juxtaposition against the younger generation who are usually the ones being sometimes unreasonably contemptuous about the dancing aunties. It drives me mad that so many people have their faces buried in their phones during what should be socializing situations, or hung up on taking selfies and photos of whatever their doing/eating instead of just enjoying/savoring it for their own biological memories.

      But maybe I’m just old.

      • Rick in China

        It’s not the dancing that’s bothersome — it’s when they set up shop in your compound or next to your home and blare music through really shitty speakers at extremely high volume which interrupts your life. Dancing in public, as long as they’re not in a mass such that it impedes public movement, isn’t such a big deal – and it’s really amusing for anyone new to China to be like “wtf”.

        I don’t think the juxtaposition with phones is equivalent, people minding their own business on their phones – while likely not mentally healthy – is very different from taking up entire public squares or areas and blasting tunes.

        • HAHA I had other torments.

          大闸粥, 黄米饭
          大闸粥, 黄米饭
          all day long

          and then when I moved it was

          黄瓜两块九毛九
          西瓜五块九毛九
          胡萝卜三块九毛九
          菠萝七块九毛九

          from 6am to 6pm 24/7

          I swear to you I’d take the shitty music over the streets vendors any day.

          Let me ask you, how many chinese friends who can’t speak english do you have? And if you are a teacher in China, have you ever spent a single break with your chinese students? or eating out maybe?
          Many of them complain relationships are hard but they don’t know they are spending all day with their phones instead of trying to get something to work in real life.

          Aunties go dance and flirt with the uncles, and when I went there they’d always want to introduce me their single niece, then call me Sunday 7am to arrange a meeting. Annoying I know, but much more fun than ktv or a club with fake beer. I’ve friend who fell in love with a gorgeous north Korean girl he met dancing at a square in Pyongyang. I think they got married , idk, we lost track after he crossed the border lol

          • Rick in China

            I’m not saying street vendors are better. They can provide some conveniences, but if they’re loud or block entrances or paths I get pissed at them too. Erm… to answer your personal questions: I’ve been here a lil’ over 10 years, my wife just began learning English, and I’m not a teacher – I’ve several local friends (like decade-long friends), none of them are the “phone pounding” type, maybe you mix with students or something too often (must be, otherwise, how could you even go about meeting someone who is only interested in their phone?)

            That being said, there is *good* in the auntie dancing, I’m not denying that. I like to see old people out and about, exercising or having fun, that’s wonderful. When it gets to the point they take over public areas, play shit loud music that interferes with what other people are doing — or in their own homes — or block movement, then it becomes a significant annoyance.

          • you are absolutely right.. though there are a couple of dozens of annoyances that I would remove from china before the shitty music blasting in the public square. Let me give you a few examples:

            Drilling, honking, street vendors (The worst are CD salesmen who ride their bikes with 2 huge speakers blasting some truly shitty techno music), drunk people arguing, etc.

            Something I’d do when I was tired of it (I used to live next to a public square)is go with my headphones at full volume and see them dancing to Miles Davis, Bille Holiday, west montgomery or Ella Fitzgerald instead of whatever they liked to dance to. A true relief when you own noise cancelling earphones, and a great past time for those of us who like to write everything we see down in a notebook without being annoyed by the city.

            Even though it’s annoying sometimes, as I said first, it brings a great aesthetic complement to those very grey places.

          • Foreign Devil

            Your friend was able to just wonder freely around north Korea and hook up with a citizen? This is the first time I’ve ever heard of such a thing happening. . is he Chinese?

          • noodles76

            Chinese or not, gotta call bullshit on that story.

          • fabulous

            Sometimes you get on a creative roll, and you can’t pull out before you’ve shot French-maths-teacher-in Pyongyang-university all over the board. You’re then forced to incorporate that ridiculous fable into every subsequent comment. Unfortunately, there’s no morning after button.

          • no he’s french, he teaches math at an university in Pyongyang… it is not forbidden to go into NK, just 100 dollars per day for a tourist visa…

        • Kai

          Oh, I agree, I’m just using “dancing aunties” as a noun. I’ve argued with someone in the past who framed this issue as people depriving the elderly of their hobby and said it isn’t the dancing itself, it’s usually the noise disturbance.

          I felt EPR was juxtaposing young people being contemptuous of how older people live their lives like older people being contemptous of how young people live their lives. Young people might find it hard to understand why these aunties find so much amusement in plaza dancing. Older people likewise think it strange that young people always have their noses stuck in their cell phones. I don’t think his point had anything to do with taking up public space or noise disturbances, just a general comment about how people of different generations and lifestyles see each other.

          • linette lee

            The music is too loud though.

          • Kai

            It CAN be too loud. That’s why there are people who are critical of dancing aunties.

            I don’t remember you actually having ever been inside mainland China. What personal experience do you have with plaza dancing aunties?

          • linette lee

            hahaha..Kai be quiet. You always make fun of me saying I never been to China. Okay, if I come to China one day you go pick me up at the Beijing airport. LOL.

          • Kai

            Actually, I think that was the first time I’ve ever said that. I said it because I remember other commenters saying that about you.

            I won’t pick you up at the Beijing airport. 1) I’m in Shanghai. 2) Dr. Sun would get jealous.

          • Rick in China

            Fair enough – if that’s all is read into it then I agree with that as well, as a general “generations see eachother’s activities differently” statement.. perhaps I read more into the comparison..

          • noodles76

            A person with their nose in a cellphone cannot block an entire park/plaza from other people. A person with their nose in a cellphone does not generally have loudspeakers projecting music. A person with a cellphone is indeed a person, not a swarm of people taking up space which others consider valuable. A person with their head stuck on the screen of their cellphone does not compare to these old ladies.

            EDIT: If every person using a cellphone took up….to use your description earlier…3m of space….. AND played music through loudspeakers…don’t you think there would be some backlash?

          • Kai

            To be fair, a person with their nose in a cell phone can block an entire escalator of people or people trying to get into or out of a subway. There are Chinese people who complain about such people.

            As for loudspeakers projecting music, there are people who use their cell phones like boomboxes playing the lamest of rural pop music as they speed by on their bike or moped. There are people who complain about them too, especially among the native Shanghainese where I am!

            However, your point of contention here is ultimately misdirected. @elpumar:disqus’s point was pretty easy to understand. Nowhere does he advocate that these plaza dancing aunties should not give a shit about disturbing others with either noise or taking up public space. That’s not his point. He merely thinks some critics of the younger generation have their own stereotypical lifestyle habits to be criticized for. That’s fair. He’s putting things into a perspective, looking at a larger picture.

            Please don’t misinterpret any defense of plaza dancing aunties as defending public disturbances. That’s not what EPR is saying, nor is it what I’m saying.

          • noodles76

            Th day I see dozens of cell phone wielding folks taking up 3 square meters of space each in a public park and blocking others from enjoying said park and/or making the volume on their phones so loud it disturbs others inside their homes is the day I’ll give credit to what you said.

            EDIT: If the anties gave a fuck about the ‘larger picture” they would be less selfish.

          • Kai

            I think you’re being myopic and preventing yourself from appreciating EPL’s point for what it is. There are so many interesting aspects to the whole “plaza dancing aunties” phenomenon as a controversial social issue in China, and you’re insisting on seeing and discussing just one aspect of it. Come on, dude. Take a step back. I think you’ll learn a lot more about modern China and Chinese people if you can separate your emotions just a bit.

          • You have understood me like no one else. I appreciate that. When I went to China It took me some time to start to appreciate such things… at first I would be like “why they don’t respect other people’s right to silence and quiet?” or “wtf is this communist shit” but then I was like “couple with it, you are in another country, go enjoy it”. And I did. An interesting fact is how involved aunties and uncles get in teaching us Chinese… and how patient they are about it. As a foreigner in China a great way to get involved was NOT spending time in sports bars that have english speaking waitresses, drinking foreign beer talking with foreigners who don’t care about speaking chinese or spending time with chinese girls who are only interested in learning english and hooking up with a white guy, but rather making local friends and enduring the language barrier, using every nuisance or amusement to my personal and cultural advantage. If I didn’t get involved while being there I would have never married my wife, nor met my Chinese friends, or learned the language… in other words, I would’ve never appreciated China as the experience it has to be.

      • I don’t think we are old, I believe many youngsters don’t know any better. In this case it’s either that or they are very jealous ’cause they can’t dance ;) I use a smartphone too and I spend lots of time in my PC but that never ever interrupts human contact for me. The best thing about 跟阿姨一起跳舞 is that if you do it just for fun (I first did it for the sake of healthy trolling but they were so nice to me I couldn’t resist) it becomes some kind of a perk for foreigners ’cause eventually (10 minutes after if your mandarin is fluid and your dancing is neat) they’ll want to introduce to you their 25 year old niece who is still single. :) Sometimes is even a little annoying, they just want to marry you with someone… at all costs lol but that’s the whole fun of getting to know a culture… to deal with whatever throws in your way.

        I’d take and agree with most criticism against communism and whatever is related to it but never ever against people dancing and smiling. In this case, for them it’s the only way to socialize and if we foreigners paid a little attention to them we’d see their way to socialize is way more natural than younger Chinese.

      • Dick Leigh

        Seeing the dancing aunties was one of my first few instances of “culture shock” in China, and it was heartwarming! Public places in Canada are few,rare and hardly ever utilized, so to see so many public spaces filled with music and people enjoying themselves, seemingly spontaneously? I still think it’s amazing.

        Go aunties go!

        • noodles76

          It was heartwarming for me too, At first, Before I opened my eyes.

          • Dick Leigh

            The dancing aunties shut down at a reasonable 10 or 11pm in our apartment compound. The bigger problem for me is that people celebrate every wedding/anniversary/engagement/bowel movement with fireworks. At 6am. One time a stray firework even hit our balcony!

          • Kai

            There are no dancing aunties where I currently live, or rather, the closest flocks of them aren’t too large or even loud. That’s not to say that there aren’t legitimate grievances against other flocks, but I’ve been lucky in this regard.

            But fireworks? Not so much. I don’t like being startled awake by explosions either, though I don’t have a issue with the tradition itself really. It’s a nuissance to me personally (and many others) but I (and most Chinese it seems) can live with it.

            That said, there are more and more Chinese netizen grumblings about fireworks with each passing year, especially over holidays. I can actually imagine a day where the use of fireworks will be more regulated as attitudes about it in modern China evolve. It’s pretty fascinating watching these things change over time.

          • Dick Leigh

            Whenever I’ve complained to Chinese about fireworks in the morning, their usual response was something like, “Why were you in bed anyways!”. :(

          • Kai

            Hah, yeah, as I’ve said to another commenter just recently, a lot of Chinese people wake up pretty damn early. Then again, I’m a night-owl as well, so…meh.

            I’ve somewhat adapted. Now the initial bang doesn’t wake me. I only begin to stir after a prolonged succession of bangs, upon which I groan and then wait until it ends. Either way, I’m sure I’m still luckier than most with regards to where I live. No inconsiderate flocks of plaza dancing ayis blaring music at unreasonable levels into unreasonable hours. The flocks nearby tend to end before 10 as well, and they don’t play their stereos very loudly either. I’m spoiled.

          • noodles76

            You are.

          • do like I did. When new year is here, go and buy as many fireworks as you can, the bigger the better. Then get drunk very late at night and go play with them at 2:30am …right where your neighbors play with fireworks in the morning. Do that for 2-3 nights and you’ll get at least the same time of good sleep. Fight fire with fire bro !

    • Markoff

      adorable? apparently they don’t dance in front of your apartment building

  • PixelPulse

    China will one day rule the world, but not with war, bombs, or invasion. No, it will be won with aunties plaza dancing.

  • Lei Feng’s Hat

    But, it doesn’t seem to be dancing. It’s more along the lines of a hive-mind trance; old red guard robots on auto pilot, moving in a prescribed circle, flapping their arms like birds on LSD – all to the over modulated back beat from a 70’s porno film.

    I just wonder, what do they think they are doing? Do they consider this stuff some sort of exercise, of physical conditioning?

    Other astonishing forms of Chinese exercise:

    – Rubbing your stomach vigorously with an open hand

    – Walking around your community, backwards

    – The hula hoop

    – And that ‘activity’ where people stand around in a circle and kick around the bottle cap with feathers coming out if it.

    • Don’t forget scratching your throat bloody just to cure the cough.

      • noodles76

        My uncle just did that to my wife last night. On her throat and on the back of her neck. Sad. Logic and medicine hold no sway against their peasant superstition.

    • Kai

      Unless they’re just rubbing their belly for the sake of rubbing their belly (cuz it feels good? I dunno), I think Chinese heard from somewhere (likely pseudo-science) that rubbing your belly can aid digestion or something. I don’t think that’s “exercise”.

      I think walking backwards works different muscles. I’m pretty sure they just alternate and I’ve seen non-Chinese people do this before outside of China. Walking is definitely exercise. Beats sitting on your ass all day playing mah-jong (sure, I guess that can be mental exercise).

      Haven’t seen ordinary Chinese people using hula hoops yet, outside of random marketing events.

      The last thing is like hacky sack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacky_Sack) and that shit can be pretty cool. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jianzi I’d say that can definitely be a sort of exercise.

      • noodles76

        Really? You’ve seen non Chinese walk backwards for ‘exercise’? Where?

        • UserID01

          I’ve seen non-Chinese people running on the running track backwards, actually. A lot of the younger fitness types.

          • noodles76

            where?

        • Kai

          Sure, I’ve seen people do it in LA and SF where I’ve lived, in gyms, at tracks, or even in neighborhoods. It’s obviously less common than walking forward (just like in China) but I think it’s just working different muscles.

          Same with running backwards. It’s more like jogging backwards though because it’s pretty hard to really “run” backwards. Again, same concept, working different muscles.

    • Angie Mac

      Yeah, the backwards walking always cracked me up. I always had to think to myself, “Y’know, you’re not that strong of a forward walker. Maybe you should focus on that before tackling the backwards walking.”

    • Surfeit

      It is exercise. I feel the same way about line dancing, but it’s still dancing. Can’t knock people for dancing. We can dance where we want to…

    • Phlegming Liberal

      Or walking around your street at 6am while clapping your hands loudly (some kind of impact exercise?).

  • What’s so wrong about this? haha

    • bujiebuke

      Nothing. Just a few tourists having a good time in Russia. The editors post stories that are trending in Weibo and other social media outlets in China. It could range from something truly bizarre to a light-hearted story.

    • Insomnicide

      They’re once again showing the world how obnoxious, embarrassing and unreasonable mainland Chinese can be. Making non-Chinese, or even other, non-mainland Chinese everywhere resent us a little bit more.

  • Anna Presman

    This is the first time I hear anyone refer to Russians as warrior people. I guess it’s better than “drunk commie nazies” :)

    • Irvin

      labels are just product of different point of views.

    • Boris

      I heard “Druk commies” but never “Drunk commie nazies”. Though I only hear that thrown at Russian men. The women get called “Hot russian babe”. Of course, I am only talking about the hot ones that use to work at that law firm I was working at and partied all night on open roof garden.

      • Paulistano

        Dfaq, I really think that russian women are gorgerous, they have the best quality porn, besides that, they are beautiful.

      • Anna Presman

        For the record, I’m Russian myself and it was meant as a joke :)
        I don’t even drink (blasphemy).

        • Boris

          Oh look! A Hot Russian Babe!

          ;)

    • mr.wiener

      Warriors in so far as they get invaded , then regroup and swamp the invaders with strength of numbers…..hmm, that might actually work against the Chinese aunties.

      • noodles76

        Have you seen their numbers? If I brainstorm this puppy..I see no clear victor. The aunties will annoy the soldiers until they capitulate.

    • Guy Fawkes

      It has something to do with the expansion of the Russian Empire from Eastern Europe to the frozen North Asia (and Alaska) where the Chinese would not even venture into in the past. Some Chinese see Russians as a strong people because of this.

    • Paulistano

      Or ”fucking commis…” by Murica.

    • Insomnicide

      For the time period they have existed as a complete and independent nation, the Russian people have resisted foreign invasion constantly and defended their homeland while expanding their national territory. They are a martial race, and one of the strongest too.

  • chandlerpatrick

    The problem to me is not the dancing, it’s the fact that Chinese, for some reason, think that they get to do whatever they feel like abroad. They seem to think that China is the whole world. Obviously not all of them, but a good deal. I’ve overheard Chinese tourists aborad talking about the locals in Chinese, and refering to them as “laowai”! I said “excuse me, but in this country (Canada), we don’t use terms that could be considered offensive – regardless of the language you are speaking in. Furthermore, in this country you would be the laowai!” Overheard the same thing in Ireland as well…

    • Honibaz

      You raise a good point. I think this underlying ethnocentric sentiment in most Chinese people has deep historical roots. Before the 19th century, China had always considered itself the military and cultural power of Eastern Asia. However, with the advent of the Industrial Revolution it quickly fell behind the Western world and Japan. Add the Opium Wars and the Sino-Japanese Wars and you have an even greater sense of humiliation when you recount China’s recent history. Many Chinese have still yet to accept that the Western world and Japan have much more harmonious and morally vigilant societies than China. Instead of endlessly revering historical Chinese achievements and seeing foreigners as inferior, they should learn from the developed world, especially in regard to social responsibility.

      • Cameron

        What you say is all true. But the fact is a million things happen to a country that define its history. The ones we feel define us a nation or people are the one we (or our leaders) choose to define us. No one forces China obsess over its recent past national humiliations, yet that is what the CCP and the older generations choose to do.

    • mr.wiener

      I also read an article that said the North Koreans are getting fed up with Chinese tourists as they are in the habit of throwing handfulls of sweets to the kiddies just to see them scrabble for them.

      http://shanghaiist.com/2014/06/15/north-korea-makes-moves-to-reduce-reliance-on-chinese-tourists.php

      I enjoy slumming at the Shanghaiist.

      • Paulistano

        Wtf, I dislike North korea, but humiliating kids like savage animals is a truly disgusting act by chinese tourists. If I see this scene in my country by a tourist, I would gladly show to ths gentle tourist what facism was last century

      • Insomnicide

        Oh the irony.

    • Dax

      I had a belligerent Chinese guy yell “Zhe shi Zhongguo!” at me when I was in Laos. He looked rather confused when I corrected him.

      • noodles76

        He likely simply did not get it. Just as many other retards here don’t get it. That look of confusion, is what poor education and brainwashing looks like.

    • Insomnicide

      It’s just a term for non-Chinese.
      Just like how people in English refer to Zhongguoren or Hanren as ‘Chinese’, a term that came from colonial era British explorers naming the country. No one in China gets offended by that. But you guys all get offended at laowai, a completely neutral term referring to non-Chinese.

      • noodles76

        It’s not ‘completely’ neutral. I think you know this. Like many words, it depends on how it’s used and the tone it’s used in. Table, is a completely neutral word. Laowai, is not.

        • Zappa Frank

          to be fair (or better, ‘unfair’) even “Chinese” is not so neutral anymore and have a bit negative connotation..
          I think we can stand the laowai thing..

          • noodles76

            Uh…how is it not neutral?

          • Zappa Frank

            well you know, “Chinese” is often used as synonym of cheap stuff and low quality… if you name any object and you add ‘chinese’ as adjective 80% you are complaining about it…

          • noodles76

            So you think that also refers to people?

            EDIT: (refers to people in a negative way I mean) Of course the word Chinese refers to people.

          • Zappa Frank

            for extension it may also refer to people.. i’m not sure about this since it may vary from country to country, but i think we cannot deny that ‘chinese’ or ‘little chinese’ is sometime used as pejorative even maybe with a clear offensive intention..

          • noodles76

            little Chinese…funny you mention that. The only time I have ever heard ‘little’ being used to describe a people or a country is by Chinese when referring to Japan.

          • Zappa Frank

            well i don’t know in your country, as i said it may vary, in my country is used with almost every Chinese, sometime with intention to be offensive (and usually is considered offensive by Chinese).. “cinesino”

          • noodles76

            So referring to a Chinese person as Chinese is offensive? Language is a strange thing.

          • Zappa Frank

            no, referring to someone else as Chinese with the intention to offend..

          • noodles76

            So what you’re telling me is that in the countries you listed earlier….they refer to people as Chinese even though they are not Chinese because of their behavior? Is that true? I honestly do not know.

          • Insomnicide

            Well Chinese certainly carries a negative connotation in Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Mongolia, Russia, and even in some social circles in America.

          • noodles76

            I don’t think they are synonyms at all. If a product was made poorly and came from Mexico I would not refer to it as Chinese. However, ‘made in China’ has become synonymous with inferior workmanship. Is that the confusion?

          • Zappa Frank

            when a product is defective or poor quality i hear people mocking the owner, asking if it is Chinese, not if it is Mexican.. and that’s regardless the place of the origin of the product. Anyway may be a local habit and not present in all countries, however reading online i wouldn’t say..

          • noodles76

            Which is referring to ‘made in China’ not the Chinese people.

          • Zappa Frank

            the product is ‘chinese’…please don’t stretch my English, i think you got my meaning..

          • noodles76

            I do get your meaning but we’re not on the same page apparently. Deriding a product because it was made in China is not the same as deriding an entire group of people because they are not from the same country as you.

          • Zappa Frank

            deriding the product and people that did it for extension.. that’s my meaning. Poor quality and all 差不多style from people not able to do one thing straight. .that may be the implication of the term ‘chinese’ in some context

          • noodles76

            Maybe you’re over-thinking it. Then again, maybe I am too.

        • Insomnicide

          Table maybe a neutral word, but what about something like ‘homosexual’? It’s a scientific term describing people attracted to the same-sex, and yet it carries negative connotation to some people.

          I guess same could be said for ‘laowai’, it carries a negative connotation depending on who you’re talking to. The term itself however, has no real alignment.

          • noodles76

            I don’t think homosexual carries any negative connotation. ‘Homo’ might but I am just not seeing it for ‘homosexual’.

            EDIT: That said, I will agree that some folks get bent out of shape by what they perceive a word to mean instead of what it actually means. However, laowai, and waiguoren are both somewhat offensive at their core. It would be like me coming here to China and calling them foreigners because they are not from my own country.

          • Insomnicide

            Laowai, isn’t not necessarily directed towards foreigners. Weiguoren is, and I agree, it would be ignorant to refer to people by that term in their own country. However, that’s not commonly used.

            Laowai, just means outsider. Getting offended by the term laowai is like getting offended by gays referring to you as straight. Yeah I had to use the gay community as an example again but..you get the point.

          • noodles76

            Um…who else is laowai directed at?

          • Insomnicide

            Non-Chinese. That can include even other Asians for example. It’s just a general term. There are many languages which have similar terms.

          • Zappa Frank

            sincerely it’s the first time i hear that laowai may include Japanese or Korean… so far i was always told is for western people..

          • Insomnicide

            It can be used for Japanese or Koreans…but usually not because other terms are more popular.

            Laowai can refer to western ‘white’ people but is also used for Slavics, blacks, Arabs, etc. etc.

          • noodles76

            It’s used for anyone not born in China. Period.

          • Insomnicide

            Chinese diaspora are never referred to as laowai though.

          • noodles76

            Yes thay are, I’ve heard it with my own ears…as well as much…harsher terms.

          • Insomnicide

            I have never heard it, but you can tell whoever you heard it from that they’re using the term wrong and need to go back to Chinese language class.

          • noodles76

            Sure. And while I am at it I can also educate the dumbfucks who call my daughter ‘waiguoxiaohai’er’ when we are walking together with my Chinese wife.

            Sorry guy, I alone can not remedy the masses of their stupidity here. Much like I can not remedy you of your own. Some people just have no desire to learn. Do not put the responsibility on my shoulders.

          • Cameron

            Usually just used for whites though, apart from when theyre trying to be PC on the TV etc. Blacks are usually Heiren or Heigui, while other Asian nations have their own terms like Acha for Indians, Ribenguize for Japanese etc.

          • noodles76

            Exactly, and in English…it would be foreigner. I never referred to a Chinese in China as a foreigner though. Yet, Chinese…..

          • Insomnicide

            Instead you refer to them as Chinese, rather than what they call themselves in their language.

          • noodles76

            Again you’re missing the point. The terms ‘laowai’ and ‘waiguoren’ are offensive at their core since they refer to people who are not Chinese. Same with ‘foreigner’ in English. The original post we are all responding to was referencing Chinese referring to Canadian people IN CANADA…as laowai. That would be akin to me, living in China, and calling Chinese foreigners.

          • Insomnicide

            Yeah, Canadian people, the non-Chinese ones are not Chinese. I can see that there might be a negative connotation in certain contexts, but in general it’s not offensive. They’re not going to refer to white people as 同胞, they clearly are not the same ethnicity, or even race.

          • noodles76

            What Canadians are not Canadian? I do not understand what you’re saying.

            Canadian people, the non-Chinese ones are not Chinese

          • Insomnicide

            White Canadians are not Chinese. Ethnically, or racially.

          • noodles76

            Canadians are not Chinese you mean? Um…duh…

          • Insomnicide

            Now you’ve completely missed the point.

          • noodles76

            So try again.

            EDIT: I actually think I do get your point but that point fails. Right, they are not Chinese but referring to them as laowai or waiguoren is not different from calling them a foreigner. Agree?

            Calling somebody a foreigner in their own damn country is a little more than offensive. It also denotes that Chinese still think themselves as superior and at the center of the world.

          • Insomnicide

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese

            I’m assuming the person who was called laowai is white, maybe i’m wrong. But let’s assume he/she is a white Canadian. Then he/she is not ethnically Chinese, or racially Asian. Which means, the term laowai makes sense.

          • noodles76

            No…no it doesn’t.

            EDIT: Let’s agree to disagree. We’re starting to go in circles.

          • Insomnicide

            Yeah, I thought we were getting somewhere but no, we’re not. My point is, the term is for anyone non-Chinese. And Chinese is not just a nationality so I personally see nothing inherently offensive with the term. It does have negative connotations, nowadays because how Chinese people perceive certain non-Chinese.

          • Rick in China

            You totally don’t understand the basis of the term do you? It’s foreigner or OUTSIDER. You may say “it’s for non-Chinese”, no, in China it’s for non-Chinese, because the definition of the term is someone from the outside. When you go to some other country, YOU are now the laowai. The point noodles is making is that, the ethnocentric view of the Chinese who leave China remains, they still consider themselves as the middle of everything – and see the world through utterly subjective vision, and calling other people the “outsiders” is absolutely offensive to the local people there. The whole argument that laowai only means “non-Chinese” is like saying “bendiren” means “Chinese”, they have totally different meanings, and you’re just attributing the meaning of a different word to “laowai” to justify these ignorant self centred fools travelling abroad and calling the local people of other countries as “outsiders” or “foreigners”. I can’t believe you can’t see how offensive that sort of behaviour is. It’s basically someone coming into your house and saying “what are you doing on my property”.

          • Insomnicide

            There is no connotation that Chinese consider themselves the middle of everything what’s so ever. This is like saying Americans going abroad calling everyone non-American must be because they still think America is the best country in the world.

            Calling people who are not Chinese non-Chinese is not offensive. You aren’t Chinese. You don’t have yellow skin, Asiatic eyes, you don’t speak Chinese as your first language and you aren’t apart of this race. It’s as ridiculous as someone getting offended by black people calling white people white.

            “It’s basically someone coming into your house and saying “what are you doing on my property”.”
            Awful analogy there because Chinese who travel abroad still refer to the locals as ‘locals’. They call Americans in America Americans, and Australians in Australia, Australians. If someone comes into your house and calls you not the owner of HIS house, would you get offended?

          • Rick in China

            You are still operating under your stupid presumption that “laowai means non-Chinese”, not laowai means outsiders from outside of China. When a Chinese person goes to another country and calls the local people laowai – THAT IS OFFENSIVE. That is the point. You want to dance around your semantics saying oh no no they call them Americans in America or “Non-Chinese” yada yada, well, that’s not the case in this thread – this thread’s whole point is that when Chinese people go to another country and call the locals laowai it’s offensive, because it literally means outsider, and it’s ignorant, because they’re LITERALLY the outsider in that situation. Why is it ethnocentric and self-centred? because they don’t even realize *they are now the very laowai they are talking about*. When I went on my first int’l trip with my now-wife, we went to the Philippines – she mentioned something about laowai, I said, stop, you realize now, YOU are the laowai – she laughed and said oh yeah. Simple. done. My “what are you doing on my property” analogy is absolutely apt, if you don’t go by your bent definitions..let me clarify: If I go into your house and say, “what are you doing here foreigner/outsider?” << That's the exact same thing, literally, LOOK THE WORD UP ** Please ** before you make even a greater ass of yourself.

            Translations of 老外
            noun
            foreigner
            外国人, 老外, 洋人, 外人, 羇, 羇客

          • Insomnicide

            And now you’ve just gone full retard. If it’s ethnocentric, then it’s based on the ethnicity not the country.

            Are you ethnic Chinese? No. So why do you find it offensive that Chinese people don’t call you ethnic Chinese? Philippinos, the non-Chinese ones, are not ethnic Chinese. So how is it ridiculous for them to be called ‘laowai’?

            Once again, if it’s ethnocentric like you said, then it has nothing do with countries or nationalities but ethnicity. And guess what, Chinese is an ethnicity.

          • Cameron

            Surely Han Chinese and the other 55 groups are ethnicities. Saying “Chinese” by itself merely means a citizen of China. Are Han Chinese and Uyghurs/ Tibetans/Miao/ Mongolians etc the same ethnicity?

          • Insomnicide

            They don’t refer to each other as 同胞, not even the Hui who are close to the Han.

          • noodles76

            Depends on who you ask. But this is not part of the conversation you are replying to.

          • Rick in China

            Nice dodge. Sort of. You realise Chinese refers to both/either an ethnicity and a nationality, right? Ethnocentricity is in the *language* throughout. We are the centre of the world. Going to another country and calling people laowai is absolutely related to this viewpoint, and if you think otherwise, you’re again, only proving you are lost in your own nonsense. Try harder. If you go to Philippines and call non-Chinese locals “laowai” of *course* it is ridiculous, because of the meaning of the word *laowai*. Here we go again in a fuckin circle. You don’t know what the word means, how it should be used, or how it is offensive when said to people *in their own country*, and for these points, I have nothing left to say. Dense, dense person.

          • Insomnicide

            Ethnocentricity is the culture, the ethnicity. You do realize that I’m not talking about the Chinese nationality right? You haven’t even tried to explain how or why, instead dismissing anything I say as nonsense. Which is why we’re going around in a circle in the first place.

            No, you don’t know what the word means. And if you don’t understand the word, you should not try and tell other people how this word is offensive when the very word 老 is used in affectionate contexts. It’s not offensive to go to another country and label the local people as non-Chinese when they’re not Chinese. Either you haven’t looked in a mirror lately, or you’ve really come to believe that there’s no ethnic difference between people. Is it offensive if you go to China and label all the people there not-white? How many times do I have to repeat this until it gets through to you?

          • noodles76

            You…are mentally deficient. What kind of a retarded fuck would go to another country and point out that the locals are in fact…not from their home country? Are you surprised to find Canadians in Canada? Of course not. By specifically calling them not Chinese instead of 德国人 you are proving the point Rick and I are trying to drill into your cranium.

          • Insomnicide

            No you’re retarded. Is everyone in Germany German? No. There’s a wide variety of people Germany and without confirmation is there any reason why non-Chinese would be offensive? Jesus Christ you are literally getting offended at being called non-Chinese when you are not Chinese and you have the galls to call me retarded.

          • noodles76

            Oh….my…god…

          • noodles76

            You..truly are retarded.

          • Rick in China

            *sigh*

            “World English Dictionary

            ethnocentrism (ˌɛθnəʊˈsɛnˌtrɪzəm) — nbelief in the intrinsic superiority of the nation, culture, or group towhich one belongs, often accompanied by feelings of dislike forother groups ethno’centric — adj ethno’centrically — adv ethnocen’tricity — n

            Collins English Dictionary – Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
            2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
            Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009”

          • Insomnicide

            Culture or group to which one belongs, why would it not be the case in this context?

            Why would it be focused on the nation, or nationality? What gives you that idea?

          • noodles76

            ….seriously?

          • noodles76

            I need to stop replying to those clowns too. They truly seem to have difficulties processing information.

          • Rick in China

            Even if we take the bullshit “it doesn’t mean foreigner”, even though that’s how it is translated *everywhere* and explicitly how it’s used in real life, and say it means “non-Chinese”, can you imagine you and I (presuming you’re white) are hanging out in Kenya and I go, in English, “dude look at all the non-white people around here, there’s so many…” — in English, thinking nobody can speak English there, and the reaction/looks it’d receive? Hilarious.

          • noodles76

            They simply don’t get how self centered they are.

          • Yes!

            It’s not just him being dense. It’s also how their foreign ministry people make statements about the South China Sea troubles. They’ll simply absolutely refuse to take in your points especially when they’re in the wrong. Repeat ad infinitum.

          • Kai

            I just tried defending you to Rick and I think it would be beneficial if you read it as well and acknwoledge Rick’s valid objection in his context.

            The Chinese using it abroad may just be thinking “non-Chinese” or even “white people”, but because the term also means “outsider” or “foreigner”, the people hearing that can reasonably find that irksome and offensive. There’s no profit in denying this. Sure, maybe you can appeal to them that it doesn’t only mean that, but at least acknowledge what their offense is based on.

          • Insomnicide

            But outsider can also be referring to the fact that they are outside of the Chinese race/ethnicity. Something that is true and not intended to offend. I appreciate your defense and the term has negative connotations to it. But they are missing the point.
            Unless Rick wishes he was born Chinese, I don’t see how the word and not the connotations is offensive to him.
            Maybe he has a personal vendetta against the word, but it is quite possibly the least offensive colloquial term for non-Chinese and used more often in positive context than otherwise.

            I believe that yes, the connotations and perceptions of the term is negative and can be offensive. The word itself however generally refers to people outside of the Chinese race/ethnicity. If they take offense to the word itself, well then they should ask their parents why they weren’t born as a Chinese ‘barbaric peasant’.

          • Kai

            I know what you mean and I agree with you that the word itself and most usages by people in the situations referred to aren’t intended to be inherently offensive. I’m not missing that point of yours as I’ve demonstrated in my comments so far. I understand they are either missing or refusing to acknwoledge your point, which is why I responded to Rick too.

            What I’m saying is that you should communicate to them that you also get their point and agree that Chinese people abroad should be more aware of and sensitive to how using the word “laowai” to refer to the locals is interpreted as offensive to the locals. They have a complaint and they want it acknowledged. They see you as denying them their complaint.

            Rick finds it offensive because he chooses to only interpret the word as “foreigner” and not as merely “non-Chinese”. To be fair, he’s clearly said he’s not as bothered by it as others, but he does empathize with them on this reason. There’s nothing incomprehensible about him being able to empathize with how the word “others” people. Pretty much no one likes being othered.

            Also, it isn’t just a “connotation” of othering; a definition of “laowai” is indeed “foreigner” which indeed makes little contextual sense uttered by a foreigner in a country about a local. I’ve defended you to the extent that choosing to only think of that definition is somewhat unfair because there are other valid definitions, but I’m saying overall that there’s no real profit in defending the use of “laowai” at the cost of unnecessary, avoidable offense. Chinese people are not generally ignorant to the fact that “laowai” does also mean “foreigner”. They continue using the word because of its flexibility but also because of linguistic inertia, because they haven’t gotten pushback for it from their peers at home where it is conventional. But when they go abroad, they should at least be sensitive to how the locals interpret their words and actions.

            The people you are arguing against should acknowledge your point. You should acknowledge theirs.

          • noodles76

            Too late. They just can’t stop humiliating themselves. The saddest part is that they think they are right.

          • Kai

            I think you’re reading him too uncharitably, Rick. His “presumption” of “laowai” meaning “non-Chinese” isn’t “stupid”. It’s arguably how many Chinese use the term, especially when they do so abroad in other countries.

            To them, in their context, it is a term for simply non-Chinese people. It is used as a label for a specific type of people. It is, in their instance, not being use as a label for “foreigners of a country”.

            However, “laowai” certainly has THAT definition AS WELL, which is PRECISELY why it can so easily be taken as offensive when Chinese use it abroad when THEY are the foreigners in a country.

            The issue here is that the usage by the Chinese person is not the same as how it is interpreted by the person overhearing it. Both are arguably innocent. Most of the time, the Chinese person using the label as a foreigner in another country isn’t doing so maliciously. It’s more of a colloquialism, a habit, a term that they grew up using that is neither positive or negative but certainly can be uttered with positive and negative inflections.

            The offense taken by the person overhearing it isn’t unreasonable either. As far as they know, and so long as they understand “laowai” as only meaning “foreigner”, it doesn’t make sense and it DOES suggest a sort of ethnocentricism on the part of the Chinese doing it.

            I think what @insomnicide:disqus was trying to say is that there is 1) usually no malicious intent, and 2) is often used by Chinese as simply meaning “non-Chinese” (or, I argue, usually “white people”). I don’t think this is “stupid” at all. Why is it? It’s simply factual.

            But it doesn’t mean people shouldn’t be irked by the word and its usage abroad. While I think learning the nuances of the term will help people realize it isn’t patently pejorative, if people decide it is, even if it may be unfair to what Chinese are innocuously meaning when they use it, then it will become a pejorative. The same thing happened with “negro” and “Oriental”. If people push back on the usage of the term, then more and more Chinese will stop using it.

            I for one would prefer Chinese people having more precision in their words, to call Americans “Americans” instead of “laowai”, etc. Even if I know what they mean, I don’t think there is harm in more precision and avoiding misunderstandings. Why the hell not, right?

            But one more time, what Insomnicide said is an accurate reflection of the mental processes of those using it. The word has both different definitions and connotations involved depending on when and how it is used in what context. @Insomnicide pointing that out shouldn’t be so heavily castigated by you.

          • noodles76

            Bullshit. A big post full of bullshit.

            When Chinese are in the U.S.they can refer to the locals as meiguoren. When in Canada…..ah fuck it…I’ve said this all in this thread once before. Please spare me the crap about their mental process. if there was actual processing going on they’d call the locals by their proper (in Chinese) name.

            I love to see stupid make excuses for stupid though. It’s entertaining.

            EDIT: I find it more than a little amusing that sometimes you (absurdly and incorrectly sometimes) try to find a middle ground yet others…you repeatedly attack posters who you disagree with.

            Some Mod you are.

          • Rick in China

            I understand what you’re saying, but you’ve made my point for me. “what Insomnicide said is an accurate reflection of the mental processes of those using it” — that is *exactly* what I am saying.

            I remember my grandpa saying things in public, and I’d look, and say, “you can’t say that.”. No maliciousness intended, but simply uncouth and ignorant behaviour. Justify it plenty – because it takes plenty of justification, ethnocentrism is ripe.

          • Kai

            Not quite. You are saying they are thinking of “foreigners” when they say “laowai” in a foreign country. That’s not precisely true. They are thinking of “non-Chinese” or “white people” when they say it in a foreign country. Again, this stems from the word having multiple definitions and usages. As I said, I think that’s what Insomnicide is saying and it isn’t “stupid” for him to say that. That said, I’ve told him to read my reply to you because I want him to understand and acknowledge your point (the point of many who take issue with Chinese usage of the word abroad) as well.

            I’m not trying to justify the usage of the word, especially persistently so in the face of offense being taken, but I am trying to put it in fair context. Remember, it’s hardly only the Chinese who do this also. This is largely a problem of linguistic inertia. They’ve gotten away with it for eons that it has become commonplace. Negative feedback will hopefully change it.

          • Rick in China

            “You are saying they are thinking of “foreigners” when they say “laowai” in a foreign country. That’s not precisely true.”

            That’s not what I said. I said that the word means foreigner, and in a homogenous society like China, MANY people do not differentiate whatsoever between people from other countries except by race, and generalise and call all people “老外” or “外国人”, why? Because there are two types of people in this phraseology, Chinese and “other”. I don’t pretend to know the intentions behind every person who says laowai, and generally I do not take offence whatsoever to the term because I have become used to it, however, my whole point in this, is that the people who use it – are ethnocentric in this regard. I don’t even see that as a defensible position. You are trying hard to justify it and explain away the mentality or the usage and intention, however, it doesn’t *matter*, the fact is – and the point I’m making, is that the words and the way they are being used pit everything as *China* and *other*, and if that’s not ethnocentric – especially when expressed abroad – I don’t know what is.

          • noodles76

            Well said.

          • Rick in China

            Wont matter :D I expect 3 page-down worth of reply explaining why I’m wrong.

          • Kai

            That’s not what I said. I said that the word means foreigner,

            …and I was saying that Insomnicide is not wrong or stupid in saying “laowai” ALSO just means “non-Chinese”. One definition doesn’t not preclude other definitions. I very clearly and unambiguously stated that “foreigner” is how those who are offended are interpreting the word and that’s INDEED a definition of the word EVEN IF that’s not the usage the Chinese uttering it are likely using.

            I have said many, if not all, of the same things you’re saying to me now about how the word came about, to other people in the past here on cS. You’re telling me things I already know and don’t disagree with.

            I don’t pretend to know the intentions behind every person who says laowai,

            I think Insomnicide was appealing for you to understand the intended meaning behind people who say “laowai” abroad isn’t necessarily “foreigner” but more the more general and equally valid definition of “non-Chinese”.

            my whole point in this, is that the people who use it – are ethnocentric in this regard.

            I generally think of Chinese people being pretty ethnocentric. I think the term itself, its etymology, has roots in ethnocentric “us vs them” and “othering” people. I just know, like Insomnicide does, that there isn’t usually an conscious, intentional, malicious “othering” involved by the people using it. It is just a commonly used label, one they haven’t quite learned as being politically incorrect.

            I don’t even see that as a defensible position. You are trying hard to justify it and explain away the mentality or the usage and intention, however, it doesn’t *matter*

            I disagree with your interpretation of my position. I’m not trying to defend or justify; I’m just trying to explain because if that explanation prompts you to give the people using the word the benefit of the doubt, then you may very likely be less inclined to unreasonably judge or even hate them. There’s a difference between ignorant and being malicious (or willfully ignorant). Most Chinese uttering “laowai” are simply ignorant, like your wife was.

            I’m not disagreeing with the term being ethnocentric, I’m disagreeing with the idea that people using it are necessarily being consciously ethnocentric (they often are, but in other ways which ARE conscious).

            Do you understand the distinction? Please don’t misinterpret me begging people to give each other the benefit of the doubt as me “defending” or “justifying”. Heh, that’d be YOU not giving ME the benefit of the doubt.

            the fact is – and the point I’m making, is that the words and the way they are being used pit everything as *China* and *other*, and if that’s not ethnocentric – especially when expressed abroad – I don’t know what is.

            Again, I’m not arguing against how the word itself pits “China vs other”. Again, I’m not arguing against people feeling offended when they interpret the word as pitting “China vs other” and thus being ethnocentric. I’m just arguing that it’d be better if we don’t assume malicious ethnocentric intent. Like you said about your grandfather who used words without maliciousness. He should be made aware of how his words sound to others, but it’d be unfair to automatically assume maliciousness.

            We assume maliciousness when people say “negro” these days because we have cause to believe people shouldn’t be ignorant to how that is now commonly perceived as a pejorative. I’d wager that most of the Chinese who utter “laowai” as a tourist in another country are simply ignorant of it potentially being interpeted as a ethnocentric pejorative.

            Do you get what I’m saying? I’m not against discouraging the word’s use, I’m just against people judging Chinese tourists too harshly for something they previously weren’t aware of. I’d say the same thing for Japanese tourists who use gaijin (though I’d also argue there is actually more popular consciousness in Japan among Japanese of that being a pejorative than there is for “laowai” in China).

          • Rick in China

            There it is!

            I’ll try to be succinct. So you’re agreeing with what I’ve said, however, want to emphasise the point that it’s ignorance, not maliciousness. I never said it was malicious. I never said ignorance _is_ malicious. My whole point of quoting you and saying “that is my point exactly” — is pointing out exactly how the entire mentality is based exclusively in utter ignorance and ethnocentrism. I’m glad we agree.

          • Kai

            Come on, Rick, I wish you wouldn’t engage in the petty immaturity noodles is engaging in. I can guess your guys’ pet positions and likely reactions a mile away but you don’t see me doing it, do you? Be cool, man.

            My original response to you was:

            I think you’re reading him too uncharitably, Rick. His “presumption” of “laowai” meaning “non-Chinese” isn’t “stupid”.

            I felt you were being aggressively unfair to Insomnicide for articulating a valid point, which you seem to have said you accept.

            I never said it was malicious. I never said ignorance _is_ malicious.

            I think the issue of “maliciousness” comes from your characterizations and remarks like:

            to justify these ignorant self centred fools

            Why is it ethnocentric and self-centred?

            That’s pretty harsh name-calling against people guilty of simple ignorance. I’m pretty sure you didn’t call your wife an “ignorant self-centered fool” when she used “laowai”, right? You gave her the benefit of the doubt that I think you’re not too willing to extend here because of your annoyance with how many Chinese people still don’t know better about this. While it isn’t unusual for you to have more patience with your own wife than faceless nobodies, I think you’re still being too uncharitable.

            I’d take issue with Chinese people calling foreign tourists “ignorant self-centered fools” simply because of wholly understandable ignorance on their part. That sort of characterization is an unfair escalation.

          • Rick in China

            “ignorant self centred fools” does not imply maliciousness at all Kai. I don’t know why you think by identifying them as ignorant, self-centred, and foolish means I’m also throwing in malicious, and that’s an obvious misrepresentation of my position. I think that’s a pretty apt description alternative to “ignorant and ethnocentric” no? … no idea why you throw in maliciousness on my behalf, but no thanks.

            I’d appreciate you ceasing your presumptions of my position with my wife or grandfather, because they’re wrong. “You gave her the benefit of the doubt that I think you’re not too willing to extend here” no, I laughed, said something along the lines “you realize YOU’RE the laowai here now, RIGHT?” with a bit of a sarcastic “dumbass” expression I’m sure. She laughed, acknowledged the idiocy, and I recall at a later time on a trip with her brother/his wife she pointed out the same thing *to him* with the same “dumbass” type tone. I do find it so amusing that you like to flip the ‘unfairness’ on it’s head every time this type of situation comes up…”escalation”, how about calling it like it is.

          • Kai

            As I said, I interpreted it as pretty harsh name-calling. If you argue that you’re being emotionally neutral in tone and only semantically descriptive when you characterized these people that way, I’ll take your word for it. I just wanted to answer your question and explain where I felt it.

            Your “sarcastic ‘dumbass’ expression” is not at odds with my presumption that you gave her (and your grandfather) “the benefit of the doubt”. You asking her a question, even rhetorically, is still a far cry from simply calling her a “ignorant self-centered fool”. Are you really going to argue with me that you don’t give your wife and grandfather more benefit of the doubt when they do or say things irksome to you than you do abstract strangers?

            I don’t flip the “unfairness” on its head. What are you talking about? What is being “flipped” anyway?

            “Escalation” was actually me euphemizing your angry name-calling. An escalation would be me knowing someone was simply and likely innocuously ignorant of something but instead choosing to call them an “idiot”. I escalated the matter from simple ignorance into a judgement of character. I made it more personal than necessary or even justified.

          • noodles76

            There is no connotation that Chinese consider themselves the middle of everything what’s so ever

            Um….really?
            中国有什么意思?

            Middle country.

            你会不会认识中国字?中。。。是不是有 middle 的意思?
            如果一个人不是中国人你们叫他 外国人还是老外。但是我们叫你们Chinese. 你们在什么国家没有关系。

            你的脑子有什么问题?

          • Rick in China

            Hahaha..no shit huh. That’s *exactly* true, and I wish I included that in my last reply also.

          • Insomnicide

            Yeah and Japan is called the land where the sun originates from, Russia is called land of rowers, doesn’t mean anything.

          • noodles76

            If Japanese went to another country and told others how the sun shines on Japan first….your reply would be relevant.

          • Insomnicide

            Except Chinese people don’t go abroad to tell people China’s the center of the world. Your attempt to link these connotations to the names of China is ridiculous.

          • noodles76

            Yeah, actually many do. Every time laowai or waiguoren is uttered by a Chinese outside of China in reference to the local populace.

          • Insomnicide

            And I’ve already stated a few hours ago that waiguoren is rarely used, when it is used I agree that it is ignorant of the situation.

            But laowai is that different case and does not imply that China is the center of the world.

          • noodles76

            hahahahhaha.

            Dumbass.

          • Insomnicide

            Great. So I’ve been replying to a troll for the past few hours.

          • noodles76

            Call me a troll all you want. It won’t change the fact that you are dense and ignorant of your own language.

            Tell me..外….what does it mean?

            EDIT: My wife is Chinese…and she thinks your an idiot too.

          • Insomnicide

            How about you tell me the contextual meaning of 老, mister i-know-your-language-better-than-you?

          • noodles76

            I know what you’re trying to say..and you’re still fucking wrong. So you think putting the term ‘old’ which *can* be meant as a term of respect in front of another character that makes it OK?

            Is 老街 a term of respect? No it’s a country name.
            老挝? Same.

            Moron.

            EDIT: I’d let my wife reply to you in Chinese but she’s too busy laughing.

            EDIT 2: is 老 婊子 a term of respect?

          • Insomnicide

            You’re going to use country names which use the character Lao phonetically? Yeah, completely missing the point. 外in老外refers to outsider, outsider to the Chinese ethnicity, And guess what, if you’re white. That applies to you. No matter what country. And it applies to any other non-Chinese. Whether your take offense to it, is a subjective interpretation. The word itself has no negative or positive meaning.

          • noodles76

            And thank you for proving my point again that many Chinese are self centered. Chinese in the U.S. can refer to the locals as 美国人, in Canada they can say 加拿大人, in France they can say 法国人, in Ethiopia they can say 埃塞俄比亚人. But instead…many say laowai or waiguoren.

            Which makes them as fucking ignorant as you. So….do not fear, you have many compatriots who are as dumb as you. Congratulations!

          • Insomnicide

            Because everyone in America must be American right? There can’t possibly be tourists or foreigners in America.

            And what gives you the idea that Chinese people don’t refer to the locals by their demonym? It’s funny you’re calling me ignorant while knowing nothing about Chinese people abroad. The hypocrisy is too great.

          • noodles76

            Are you forgetting again the post that spurred all these replies? It was a person recounting Chinese people in Canada referring to Canadians as laowai.

          • Insomnicide

            Okay so you want to go back to that point now.
            How does referring to someone as laowai equals being self centered? How does that automatically equate to China being the center of the world to Chinese people?

            Defining your ethnicity doesn’t automatically mean you believe the you are the center of the world. If you really think that, then you ought to be complaining about everyone classifying themselves by their ethnicity. How hard is it for you to understand? There’s Chinese people, and people who are non-Chinese are referred to as laowai. Just like how people are referred to as non-white, non-black, non-Latino, etc. What do you refer to yourself as? White? Anglo-Saxon? Is that self-centered because you see people not of your ethnicity as other ethnicities?

          • noodles76

            Dumb….ass.
            Done with you.

          • Insomnicide

            And if I refer to my friends as 老(surname)would that be offensive?
            婊子is not a term of respect to begin with,is nice faggot a respectful term because I put nice in front of it? Using course language as an example is pretty awful, considering how the word is offensive to begin with.

          • noodles76

            You…again…miss…the…point. Sadly, it was a point that you yourself was tying to make. Yet when the same point was used against you….your tune suddenly changed.

            EDIT:’ whore’ is not course language, It is a job/lifestyle description. If you are Chinese, I am sure you are familiar. The only people offended by such terminology are in fact….whores or people unfairly labelled as such. Just as people who are not Chinese should be (and rightfully so) offended by being called laowai or waiguoren in their home countries.

            Example, if you or any other Chinese were in the U.S. and called a fellow 美国人…he should not be offended for 2 reasons. 1. It’s a logical belief even if it is in error. 2. it’s accurate. Instead many Chinese use the terms waiguoren or laowai which are only accurate if one believes China to be the center of everything….or you’re retarded. You can pick whichever describes you best.

            EDIT2: Dumbass.

          • Insomnicide

            Whore is not coarse language? Really, then why do people insult each other using the word ‘whore’ rather than sex worker or prostitute? No one in China uses 婊子 in polite company, especially not when terms like 性工作者 and 妓女 exist.

            Just like how no one uses 洋鬼子 or 鬼佬 when terms like 老外 exist.

          • noodles76

            Again….since you are slow to comprehend. whore or 婊子 can only be considered offensive if incorrectly applied. If a whore gets upset you call her 婊子 then she either has illusions of grandeur or is not willing to admit what she is/does.

          • Insomnicide

            So you’ve either never set foot in China, or the only place you’ve been to is some rural town where everyone swears like sailors.

          • noodles76

            Yup. Qingdao for nearly 5 years. nice try.

          • Insomnicide

            And you’re going to win this how? By continuously hurling insults until I ignore it?

            “You have already shown us all how wrong you are in your own damn words. ” It’s funny that I could say the same about you. It’s all just subjection and you’re making assumptions from your bias.

            So you haven’t been to any other part of China or talked to people who aren’t prostitutes about the word 婊子.

            A quick google should help. “婊子多是对妓女的一种称呼,表示对女子翻脸的不屑,也用它对女人斥骂。亦作“表子”。”
            婊子, a word commonly used to insult women. It’s hilarious that you think this is a normal word, not coarse language.

          • noodles76

            Son, I won a long ass time ago. As I said, I’d play this game until something better came along. Now, I am going to watch grass grow.

          • Yes!

            You are simply ridiculous I had to say something. When you come to my country (not China) and call me “LAOWAI” which I understand to mean “old outsider”, you are calling me a FOREIGNER in my own country. How can I be the foreigner while you are only a visitor??? I agree with noodles – you’re a dumbass. Unbelievable but true.

          • Kai

            But Japanese go to other countries and use the word “gaijin” just like Chinese do with “laowai” or Indonesians with “bule”. As far as the usage is offensive, it should be discouraged.

          • noodles76

            My wife speaks Japanese and she learned it for the sole desire to confront Japanese who talk shit about China. We live in a city with MANY Japanese tourists, Oddly enough.,..she has not had to confront anyone. Odd that.

          • Kai

            Sorry, you not personally experiencing (or remembering) something doesn’t mean a phenomenon doesn’t exist. I haven’t been bothered by loud plaza dancing ayis but I don’t deny that it exists. You also have trouble with the misleading vividness fallacy.

          • noodles76

            I never claimed it did not exist did I? I only recounted her personal experiences as a person who was looking for Japanese to ‘cross a line’….and could not find it in a city with countless Japanese tourists.

          • Kai

            Then that was my interpretation of your “odd that”. Your personal testimony suggesting better behavior by Japanese tourists does not refute my point that other nationalities and ethnicities such as the Japanese and Indonesians also have popular words equivalent to “laowai”. This is done to put things in perspective.

            As I’ve said, I don’t support needlessly offending people, so I think Chinese people should be sensitive to the pushback over their use of the word “laowai” and adjust their speech habits accordingly.

          • Kai

            Oh god, this urban legend nonsense just won’t die:

            The term Zhōngguó appeared in various ancient texts, such as the Classic of History of the 6th century BCE,[j] and in pre-imperial times it was often used as a cultural concept to distinguish the Huaxia tribes from perceived “barbarians”. The term, which can be either singular or plural, referred to the group of states or provinces in the central plain, but was not used as a name for the country as a whole until the nineteenth century. The Chinese were not unique in regarding their country as “central”, with other civilizations having the same view of themselves.[32]

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Etymology

            The name itself is not some obvious evidence of some persistent historical culutral arrogance relative to others (though the Chinese are historically definitely guilty of that). At its simplest, it is a name that has persisted ever since it referred to its (or it as a collection of kingdoms) geographic location relative to its surrounding geography.

            Here’s more reading:

            http://www.quora.com/China/Do-the-Chinese-characters-for-China-signify-its-status-as-the-middle-kingdom-or-center-of-the-world

            People need to stop thinking the name proves Chinese are vainly ethnocentric. They are (okay, CAN be), but the name “Zhong Guo” isn’t evidence of it.

          • noodles76

            It’s far more than an urban legend. Nice try sweetcakes.

          • Kai

            I provide a disagrement citing evidence and argument. You provide baseless assertions and invective.

          • noodles76

            Ok…..so you’re telling me the usage dates back to blahblah years ago and was used for blahblah reasons. what the hell does any of that have to do with now? How does that explain away the fact that many Chinese refer to Canadians in their own damn country as laowai or waiguoren? Ditto with other locals in other countries that are not China. Do you think for a moment that is has any relation to the Huaxia tribe?

            No?

            Didn’t think so.

            As I said, nice try sweetcakes.

            EDIT: Since apparently wikipedia is a valid source and time frame or current usage has no bearing….

            The term “zhōngguó” first appeared in text form in the Classic of History as the name for “the centre of civilization” or “Tianxia”, depending on the interpretation.[2] The first appearance of (中國) in an artifact was in the Western Zhou vessel He zun.[3]

            The general concept of the term “zhōngguó” originated from the belief that the Zhou Dynasty was the “center of civilization” or “center of the world.”

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_China#Zhongguo_and_Zhonghua

          • Kai

            How does that esplain away the fact that many Chinese refer to Canadians in their own damn country as laowai or waiguoren?

            It doesn’t. It just refutes the first half of your comment I was responding to.

            You can read about my thoughs about Chinese people using “laowai” to refer to Canadians in their own country in my earlier response to both Rick and Insomnicide.

          • noodles76

            And any response would be the sum total of bull + shit when Chinese words such as jianadaren exist and are not all that difficult to say.

          • Kai

            This is you refusing to give people the benefit of the doubt and insist on seeing them as negatively as you can.

          • noodles76

            No. it’s just language. Which you tried to use against me earlier. Or do you want to argue that terms such as meiguoren, jianadaren, deguoren do not exist in Chinese and there is only waiguoren and laowai?

          • Kai

            If you think I’m going to argue that terms such as meiguoren, etc. don’t exist, then you clearly are not following my argument and have a straw man in mind.

          • noodles76

            Or it’s about some Chinese people using terms which can and are considered to be negative when referring to people in their home countries.

            There is little room for flexibility here, it’s pretty clear what is right and what is wrong. Chinese could call Canadians IN CANADA waiguoren or laowai if there was no other commonly used term available. But there is. An eight year old girl who lives near me knows how to say meigioren and jianadaren…etc. Is she exceptional?

          • Kai

            Or it’s about some Chinese people using terms which can and are considered to be negative when referring to people in their home countries.

            Why are you telling me things I myself am saying?

            There is little room for flexibility here, it’s pretty clear what is right and what is wrong. Chinese could call Canadians IN CANADA waiguoren or laowai if there was no other commonly used term available.

            You are not reading or understanding my argument and are instead arguing against a straw man.

          • noodles76

            Fair enough….I might be at this point. It’s difficult to keep track of who went stupid where. I’ll re-read it tomorrow.

          • Cameron

            Er, Chinese is just a nationality.

          • noodles76

            Oh…I now see your dumbfuck retarded point. I had to drink several more pints to get to your level. Forgive me. Your point is that in the U.S. I should get pissed if somebody calls me an American instead of a New Yorker.

            I see it now.

            And you’re dumber then ever.

          • d.g.summers

            Chinese feel offended when called whites called them “China man.” Why is that?

            Gays do not like to be called “homosexuals.” Why is that?

          • Insomnicide

            Gays do not like to be called “homosexuals”? Where can I find such peculiar people.

          • d.g.summers

            @Insomnicide

            “For Many Gays and Lesbians, the Term ‘ Homosexual ’ is offensive”
            http://www.nytimes.com/…/gays-lesbians-the-term-homosexual.html

            “Why lots of gay people don’t like the word ‘homosexual'”
            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/09/14/901832/-Why-lots-of…

            “Why do homosexuals embrace the word ‘queer’ but act offended by the word ‘fag?'”
            http://www.sodahead.com/living/why-do-homosexuals-embrace-the-word-queer-but-act-offended-by-the-word-fag/question-1516715/

            link=ibaf&q=gays+do+not+like+word+%22homosexual%22

            Foreigners don’t like to be called “laowai.”
            Chinese don’t like being called (中国人) “china man.”
            In America, foreign non-citizens used to be called “aliens.”
            American-blacks call each other “nigga” but whites cannot cannot call them “nigger.”

            “Political correctness” ad nauseam.

          • noodles76

            what..the…

          • Kai

            I don’t think your analogy is appropriate here. While one can say “straight” with a negative inflection, “straight” doesn’t quite have the connotation “laowai” does with its definition of “foreigner”.

            So long as people interpret Chinese people as calling them “foreigners” in their own country, I don’t think its hard to understand why they feel offended. Chinese people need to be sensitive to that. They can try explaining how the term doesn’t necessarily mean strictly “foreigners”, but they should still be sensitive and tactful, especially as guests to their hosts. Chinese public commentators, academics, and even the government have made efforts to marginalize the word.

          • noodles76

            Now, you’re being a bit more rational than you have been in other threads recently.

            Can we agree that they (Chinese) should refer to locals in their respective countries by their proper Chinese names? meiguoren, jianadaren, faguoren, deguoren…etc instead of laowai or waiguoren?

            If so…high-five.

          • Kai

            I think I’ve been consistently rational. I feel you too easily jump to making a straw man of me and don’t take the time to really think about what I’m actually saying.

            Yes, I agree that Chinese should be more precise in how they refer to people, and frankly they should do so both IN China and when abroad. Like Rick, I’m not really bothered by the usage because I’m used to it (just like Chinese are), but I definitely see how it can be offensive to others even when the Chinese didn’t intend it. When I say people should give due consideration to the Chinese not usually being intentionally malicious or offensive when they use it and thus give them the benefit of the doubt, I’m not saying Chinese people should carry on using it without proper consideration for how others interpret the word as offensive.

            Like Rick’s wife, the pushback she got from him changed her speech patterns. She realized something she previously was ignorant of or took for granted, but now she knows. In communicating with her, he ultimately gave her the benefit of the doubt. It’s not like he laid into her accusing her of being maliciously ethnocentric and arrogant. On some level, he knew that’s not really what she’s thinking when she used it. He was right. I’m saying we should keep that in mind when we judge Chinese people who use it. By all means, communicate that its offensive, but avoid making it seem like they’re doing it intentionally.

            It’s like when a foreign tourist in China makes a faux pas. In some places, it’s rude and inappropriate to ask a young woman if she has a boyfriend. I made this mistake once because as an American, that just making small talk to me. It’s fine if people were offended, but it’d be unfair if they thought I was malicious as opposed to simply ignorant. I think Insomnicide was arguing that these Chinese people aren’t trying to be malicious. That’s fair, as long as he acknowledges that people have cause to be offended by the word “laowai”. I think he did acknowledge this, so it’s unfair to read more into his argument than there is.

      • noodles76

        Do people in Spain get offended by others calling them Spanish? Likely not. Would Canadians be offended if Chinese referred to them as 加拿大人…also…likely not.

        • Insomnicide

          And Chinese people don’t get offended by white people labeling them as not-White. Or Canadians calling them non-Anglos.

      • chandlerpatrick

        WRONG! It is not neutral at all! The literal translation of it is “old outsider”… I personally don’t like hearing it all that much, probably because I hear it so often, and don’t feel like that is what I am after almost a decade here, BUT I can ignore it. They are pointing out people for being different, skin color, race, etc. It is rude, and quite frankly, pointless. Now, when Chinese people go abroad and use the term “laowai” when talking about locals, then I get offended. Seriously… How dare they? Is it not enough to refer to the foreigners in China as “old outsiders”? Now you need to refer to a countries locals (while you are a guest) as outsiders as well? I saw this happen in 2 countries!

        • Dick Leigh

          I’ve tried saying to Chinese people, “现在你是个老外“ when I hear them refer to white people in Canada. They -never- understand and just look utterly confused. Probably cuz my tones are wrong. :P

          • James Clark

            Try “在这个地方你也是老外”? People understood when I said this to them. That was in Yunnan talking to people from Beijing.

          • noodles76

            Nope, they’re just retarded.

          • James Clark

            Could it be that they’re cantonese speakers? I know a lot of people from Hong Kong moved to Canada before the handover.

          • noodles76

            It could be….though most speak or at least understand Putonghua. Often, people pretend to not understand or deliberately try not to.

          • Dick Leigh

            Actually I was joking. My pronunciation is fine. Chinese don’t expect Chinese from me because I’m a random white dude. If I warn them beforehand that I’m about to speak Chinese, then comprehension is fine.

        • James Clark

          What other words do they have? If they didn’t call us laowai what could they use? (legitimate question) “Outsider” doesn’t sound too bad to me, although in my own country, yeah, it’s totally incorrect. I’m pretty sure most of the time when they say it it’s not intended in offense.

          • Dick Leigh

            waiguo pengyou and bai ren. I would MUCH rather straight up be called bai ren, because with laowai they’re pretending to call you a nonracial term that they never use on asians, africans or indians.

          • James Clark

            Wait, they don’t call Africans or Indians laowai? What then youwai? xinwai? it always bothers me that they openly discuss you when they’re standing right there, but I never thought the term was offensive, just the behaviour.

          • noodles76

            Dark skinned (any by that I mean tan but especially black) people are referred to as heiren.

          • chandlerpatrick

            You could make that argument, but you’d be wrong, because other terms, nicer ones exist. But, I think you’ve missed the real point. They don’t need to say anything at all!

          • James Clark

            Nicer terms exist, sure. That doesn’t mean they’re always being offensive when they use it. The word can be directly compared to “foreigner” in english. The word has a bad rep in the age of talking about immigration all the time in the west, but generally isn’t considered an offensive term. Of course, it depends on the place, but people getting angry about use of the word “laowai” smacks of oversensitivity to me. They don’t need to say anything? Everyone loves a good bitching session don’t they? Most of us are easy targets, Let them have their fun.

          • chandlerpatrick

            James, I’m close to 10 years here. If it really bothered me that much, I’d be gone. In this thread, I stated that while I don’t like it, I can ignore it. When Chinese use that term abroad, then I find it more offensive. What people say in their own homes is their business, but in public, it is rude and pointless. Your idea of “let them have their fun, and most of us are easy targets” is a way off the mark. Sure the word can be compared to “foreigner”, but do you think it’d be a good idea on the streets of NY to point out people, whom you don’t personally know, and call them “foreigner” because they are of a different ethnicity? After all, your just “bitching and and having fun”…

          • James Clark

            Yeah, I edited that part. It’s pretty hard to offend me with stuff like this, so I tend to encourage people to relax. Why does it matter what word they use when they do it? Like I said, the behaviour is offensive, not the word itself. Considering the relatively recent (and constantly propagated) history and how hard it is for young chinese these days, a certain amount of bitterness is to be expected. I just don’t see why people care, it’s changing but it’s going to take a couple more generations to do it. I’m far more bothered by their taste in music than their cultural sensibilities.

          • chandlerpatrick

            That sounds about right. Their mainstream music is brutal… But then again, we created Beiber and Miley Cyrus, so i guess the pot is calling the kettle black. ;-)

        • 白色纯棉小裤裤

          Apparently you don’t know Chinese culture.. In China placing “old” before someone’s family name is a respectful way of calling them, and implies you have good relationship with them. For example “old Zhang” , “old Wang”. Some times you may be considered to be rude if you miss the “old”.

          To us native Chinese speakers, lao wai is a respectful/chummy way of calling someone that looks different that us. Actually I hate the fact that many Chinese people only call white people “laowai” because they think white people are more superior than black/indians. For black/indians they say “黑鬼”/”阿三”

          Practically “lao wai” is used to refer people that look different than us, and it’s meaning is beyond a simple “foreigner”. Its indeed rude to translate a word literally and try to teach native speakers how to use their own language.

          • Mateusz82

            It’s considered friendly to shorten names, like how “James” becomes “Jimmy”, or “Michael” is “Mike”, hence, we refer to Chinese as “chinks”, you know, to show friendliness. Besides, it’s just because we think yellow people are superior that we get all chummy, and call them chinks.

            If you think that such a word is racist, then you are being rude for telling a native speaker how to use his own language.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Yeah if you really think shorten names show friendliness feel free to call every Chinese you meet “chink”, every Japanese you meet “Jap” and every Black Africans you meet “Nigger”, I am fine with it, and for people like you I won’t use ”老外“, “白皮猪” is more appropriate.

          • Mateusz82

            Glad you’re fine with it, though since I don’t share your love of racism, I won’t go throwing such terms around. And such terms are appropriate in displaying your bigotry.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            So your reply was pointless from the beginning because you yourself don’t even believe what you said: Shorten name while referring to race in English shows friendliness.

          • Mateusz82

            It had a point, to show off how ridiculous your rationalization. The problem was the point sailed over your head.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            lol, you don’t show something is ridiculous by saying another thing is ridiculous, dispite that they are simillar in some ways, they are differenct things after all.

            This is called False Analogy Fallacy

          • Mateusz82

            You show something is ridiculous by showing that it is ridiculous. It’s not called False Analogy Fallacy.

            If you are going to pretend you understand rhetoric, then put some effort into it.

            Also, “lol” doesn’t really make your point. It belongs more in the text messages of 12 year old girls than in a debate.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            I never said I understand rhetoric…But it is obvious you don’t understand it. Your argument are proven to be idiotic and you are probably less intelligent than a 12 year old girl.

          • Mateusz82

            And yet, you tried to lecture me on logical fallacies.

            No, they aren’t. If you wish to prove anything regarding my arguments, then you need to provide evidence. You have failed to do so. If you wish to make that claim, you need to back it up too. Otherwise, your words are meaningless.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            I am not lecturing you anything. I simply pointed out the fact that your intelligence is low.
            You were trying to use some other thing that’s ridiculous to “prove” my statement is ridiculous.And that’s exactly how False Analogy Fallacy is defined.

          • Mateusz82

            No, you’re not. Since my intelligence is not low (and higher than yours) you failed to do that. You also failed at lecturing. Stating you weren’t trying to lecture doesn’t negate that you attempted, and failed at it.

            Don’t pretend to understand fallacies when you don’t understand what they are. I was not using a false analogy. I proved the ridiculousness of your statement by turning it around.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            I proved the ridiculousness of your statement by turning it around.

            ..So Mr “The world is wrong and I am right”, what is the name of your methodology of “Prove the ridiculousness of an argument by turning it around”?

          • Mateusz82

            It’s a trick called “proving the ridiculousness of an argument by turning it around”. Mr “I make up nicknames that I think are insulting because it was cool back in middle school, and so must be cool now”

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            So you are inventing things again. Your methodology does not exist anywhere in the world other than in your own brain.

          • Mateusz82

            Actually, satire has existed for thousands of years (and not just in my brain). Sorry, you’re wrong again.

          • 白色纯棉小裤裤

            Satire…No insult but are you an art student? Satire does not prove anything.. To prove something you need this http://www.butte.edu/~wmwu/iLogic/3.3/iLogic_3_3.html

      • Cameron

        It’s not the word “laowai” that is bad. Rather it is some of the people who use it shouting in the street or saying it right in front of you. Hence, I don’t hate the word Laowai per se, but I nevertheless dislike hearing it because I associate the word with a section of ignorant dumbasses shouting and pointing at me like I’m another species rather than a human being with slightly different facial features to the majority.

      • Dick Leigh

        I bristle when someone calls me “laowai” but oddly, I feel very welcomed when someone calls me “waiguopengyou”. The latter feels much more respectful and usually isn’t shouted at me by people who then disappear.

        • Alex Dương

          Well, literally, you’re being referred to as a “friend from another country,” so you should feel welcomed.

          • noodles76

            Yeah dumbass…he said he felt welcomed when he was called waiguopengyou, way to ignore half of his post and repeat the other half. Awesome!

          • Alex Dương

            No, he said, quote, “but oddly, I feel very welcomed when someone calls me “waiguopengyou”. You know what “oddly” means, right?

          • noodles76

            I know he said he felt welcomed and you said he should. Which was superfluous since he already said he did,

            Much like many of your other posts….that one had zero content worth reading.

          • Alex Dương

            Ah, so you don’t know what oddly means. Well, I gave you a link to its definition. If you don’t want to educate yourself, sucks to be you.

          • noodles76

            Hardly, I still have you sucking on one of my nuts. it’s not too bad…seems you’ve had practice.

          • Alex Dương

            Already told you, bud: I can’t suck what doesn’t exist.

          • noodles76

            What a clever reply.
            Kinda like…I know you are but what am I. hurfdurf

          • Alex Dương

            If you act like an eight-year-old, expect to be treated as one. You’re what, 38? Act like it.

      • Mateusz82

        Right… and Chinese get offended by “chinks”, a completely neutral term referring to non-British.

        • Insomnicide

          Chinks refer to Asians, specifically Chinese. Laowai doesn’t refer to British specifically, or even white. Laowai means non-Chinese in general. But this argument is over. It’s impossible to get my point across when the opposition is just as set in their bias. You are clearly just trying to pinpoint racism where there isn’t.

          • Mateusz82

            You don’t really get sarcasm, do you? “Laowai” doesn’t mean non-Chinese. If that was true, people wouldn’t use the term based on how someone looks (they don’t ask to see a passport, or inquire about nationality before throwing it around. It’s used when based on racial appearance).

            You already got your point across. It is a racist term, and defenders of using it support racism.

            You are clearly trying to excuse racism, and deny it where it exists.

    • Cameron

      Saw a video of about fifty students from presumably Sheffield Uni’s Chinese Societ, hiking in the Peak District. After they have descended one fairly tall hill, the leader, draped in a massive Chinese flag half jokingly yells “We have totally conquered England!”
      Whatever floats your boat I guess, but the en masse “us and them mentality” certainly exists in many cases.

      • chandlerpatrick

        Imagine If a foreigner did that in China… Even half jokingly, they catch a gang beating I think.

        • noodles76

          Is there any other kind in China?

    • Mateusz82

      Can’t help thinking about how languages shapes thought. When the word for your country is literally “middle kingdom” (or “middle country”), and when you refer to yourself as part of the center of the world, including when traveling abroad, it’s almost a certainty that you’ll develop an ethnocentric attitude, seeing the world as “Us” and “Them”, with “Them” being inferior outsiders.

  • IsurvivedChina

    Classy!

  • wouldn’t it be funny if 100 skinheads came out of nowhere and kicked the living shit out of these people?

    • doraemon1971

      then next the ayi’s will install a mosh pit and then you’ll be f’d :D haha

  • Science Patrol

    Russia’s future is for all Chinese to decide.

  • noodles76

    Did you say Russians or Chinese?

  • Angie Mac

    “They occupy the entire pavement, they bump into you, they’re noisy.”

    That was the sentiment of a 70ish year old man I met, from Chongqing, a few years ago.

    • noodles76

      Obviously referring to the old biddies doing their bullshit dances.

      • Angie Mac

        Yes, sorry. That’s what it was referring to. With the exception of occasionally getting swamped by them when trying to pass, I didn’t really care. I thought it was kind of neat. Point of the post was that not all Chinese appreciate the evening dance crowd.

  • Foreign Devil

    What amuses me is that in most countries old people are grumbling and complaining about young people dancing and partying outside and blasting their music. Yet in China it is the reverse. Young people, who only know sleeping and studying complaining about old people living it up!

    PS: You can dance all you want at the Canadian parliament . . no police are going to arrest you as long as your music is not loud. The red square is very similar to Tiananmen square.

    • noodles76

      Oh clever guy, I am not Chinese. I know more than sleeping and studying.
      Out of curiosity….do you live in China?

      • Foreign Devil

        lived there 2 years in the past.

        • noodles76

          And you sincerely think this is about young people complaining for no reason?

  • Foreign Devil

    I only wish all old people in Canada would dance rather than driving around in their mobility chairs with their diabetes, cigs and lottery tickets. Running up a big bill for public healthcare.

    • noodles76

      You make it sound like diabetes is a lifestyle choice.

      • Foreign Devil

        If it is caused by a life long habit of eating fast food and soda and never exercising. . then yes it is very much a lifestyle choice. A very small portion of Diabetics are healthy and slim and purely bad genetics. Diabetes rates go up with affluence.

        • noodles76

          I wonder what has caused the spike in diabetes among older Chinese? Soda? fast food? None of that was available to them afaik.

          • TheInconvenientRuth

            Ever seen ow much sugar they use in their everyday cooking?

  • Foreign Devil

    You probably live in a tourist trap part of Shanghai or Beijing. There are no touts or Rolex hustlers in most non-tourist areas of China.

  • Ron NJ

    Please respect the feelings of the Russian people.

    • Kai

      What we need is a dance off between the plaza dancing of Chinese aunties and Russian folk dancing.

  • bang2tang

    and a lot of men love russian girls.

  • SixAces

    Ugh… Someone stop this embarrassing spectacle.

    On a side note, these people could care less and think everyone wants in on what they’re doing. A few months back while working my usual shift in the open kitchen, a mainland couple pulled a phone out and started to talk in a booming voice. The customers next to them gave them the WTF look and ultimately tapped them nicely on their shoulder and asked if they could quiet down. Being the only guy that was fluent in Chinese, I was asked to speak to them and ask if they can quiet down.

    So I walked over and asked them nicely to lower their voices because it is affecting other diners. I even suggested the area with a couch that we have where customers are encouraged to use their phones. They immediately rebutted “You’re Chinese, why are you helping the outsiders?”. I nervously smiled and said “I’m not.” They brushed me off and eventually was asked to pay their bill and leave. They threw a tantrum, eventually paying up when management threatened to call the police. The kicker to this whole event is…. They never did once hang up the phone and their voices only got louder to argue and berate me.

    1. I know this is a generalization but it has happened so often that I’m going to stick with it, but why do the comrades from the Mainland feel they are always right and not bounded by any restrictions/rules? I remember a Mainland tourist climbing on top of the Bruce Lee statue in HK, security told him to come down but he ignored them… so are rules just plain bull shit to them?
    2. Is it me or does saying “helping the outsiders” feel like it’s a race card tactic? If you’re wrong, you’re wrong. Doesn’t matter what kind of establishment.

    • Yes!

      You are absolutely spot-on with everything you’ve said. I’ve also got the “You’re Chinese, why are you helping the outsiders?” thing from them too. The idea of right or wrong are totally alien to them. It’s not too far fetched to say that mainlanders seem to suffer a certain cultural disconnect with the rest of the universe. Well, what can we say, when it’s perfectly justified to publicly parade and beat your “counter-revolutionary” or “bourgeois” neighbour to death just because he could afford to buy some nicer furniture or owned an English literature book, that happening no too long ago to 40 million of their very own comrades.

      • doraemon1971

        Kind of like this discussion. But it’s not only the mainland Chinese with such an attitude and not all of them for sure. Even some HK or Macau people have that wonderful attitude. Cause they think they are better then the rest and can do more because of it.
        The Japanese have a lovely catch phrase for it. “出る釘は打たれる”
        or in English “The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.”. And that’s what should be done with those loudmouths that think they are better then the rest. Out of my own experience ( being nearly ran over by a car driver in china or a taxi driver ) i know that if they get out of the car to talk in this loud obnoxious way just humiliate them enough so they feel not as big anymore and they fade away. Sometimes you have to be creative in finding the perfect way to do that but it works nearly every time.

  • Edward Kay

    I find it a little embarrassing too but then again, if people can Gangnam or Happy all over, why can’t them?

  • Shabiquitous

    A reasonable and fair response.

    Reading noodles entrenched and stubborn responses is an infuriating experience.
    He takes every given incident that happens in China as undeniable proof of the inferiority of Chinese culture/people.
    Any person attempting to argue a more balanced view is dismissed as ‘dumb ass’, ‘retarded’, ‘fucking wrong’ etc, without any genuine attempt to address the point they actually made.
    Then he’ll unilaterally trumpet his hollow ‘victory’ as if he has some sort of divine access to the universes inner secrets.
    His recent attack on Kai, to my mind one of the most fair-minded posters on this site, beggars belief. Any defense of a Chinese protagonist or view point, Kai is ‘biased’. Kai makes a comment that criticizes some aspect of Chinese culture, and noodles oozes righteous vindication, Kai has finally come round to the self-evident truth.

    And, tragically for the future of this site, noodles posts a scarily high proportion of comments on this site these days…

    • Paulos

      Yeah, I know where you’re coming from. Unfortunately I’ve also noticed a lot of polarization here in the comments section. Too many threads are getting reduced to either Anti-China or Anti-West flame wars. To be honest it does turn me off to a lot of the stories on the site, but it’s good to know there are still some moderates floating around.

  • Surfeit

    What’s Rusko for “Move along, we’ll have none of that business here.”?

  • IsurvivedChina

    Eating dog meat is popular in China, should they take culture abroad with them?

  • I’ll stay with the chinese on this one. There’s an easy way out of it: Go back to your country.

  • Kai

    LoL, t-minus 57 minutes!

    Edit: OOPS! Not today (or, well, 12 midnight was “tomorrow” in China) but rather the tomorrow (or the day after “tomorrow”). So, t-minus 28 hours!

  • Kai

    LoL, 2-1 Belgium in overtime. It was an epic game. Congratulations on the win!

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